Bigot? Racist? Something Else?

@maxdancona,

I'll lead you. At what point is a fetus considered a viable life?

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@Glennn,

Glennn wrote:

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You speak as if you are absolutely sure you are right,

Maybe that's because I am absolutely sure that it is wrong to cut the clitoris off girl for no good reason. It's called mutilation.

And what do you say to people who are equally absolutely sure that it is wrong to cut out a fetus?

I assume that you accept that other people can be "absolutely sure" and still be wrong. Do you accept that you can be "absolutely sure" and still be wrong?

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@maxdancona,

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And what do you say to people who are equally absolutely sure that it is wrong to cut out a fetus?

I would ask them the same thing that I asked you. At what point is a fetus a viable life?

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@Glennn,

It is injustice to cut out a fetus, thus ending its life. The word "viable" is irrelevant.

Have you had children Glennn? As soon as I knew there was a fetus (a blob of cells a few millimeters in diameter), I considered my daughter human and I would have been devastated had she lost her life.

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@maxdancona,

It is not your fetus. It is the female's fetus. It cannot exist without her. It is part of her. If she choose to abort the pregnancy, she has made a choice concerning her life. The fetus is not a person no matter how much you want to believe that it is.

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@Glennn,

Says who, Glenn? You are making judgment that circumcision is injustice (even if the mother chooses it for her daughter). You are making the judgement that abortion is the mother's choice.

You are stating that a fetus is not a person. I don't agree you on this, my daughter became a person when she was conceived (she is now a pre-teen).

Just a tip ... you should definitely not tell an expectant mother (or father) that their fetus is not a person.

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@maxdancona,

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You are making judgment that circumcision is injustice (even if the mother chooses it for her daughter). You are making the judgement that abortion is the mother's choice.

You are comparing a females right to determine whether or not she desires to be a mother with a mother's right to cut the clitoris off her child who is no longer dependent on her for life. Your analogy doesn't apply.

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You are stating that a fetus is not a person. I don't agree you on this, my daughter became a person when she was conceived

Following that line of thinking, using a spermicide is murder, then. Do you believe that using a spermicide or the morning-after-pill is murder?

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@Glennn,

I know that Max wants to make this a discussion of women's health issues, but what does that have to do with racism or bigotry? I remember years back during an tv interview special with Ted Turner he was asked if he thought abortion was murder, his answer was no he did not, and neither does organized religion.....his rationale was that after a miscarriage no one conducts a funeral or a memorial for the almost born. (Yes I know some States require burial depending on the length of the pregnancy, but maybe that's changed in recent years). You can't issue a birth certificate for a stillborn child, and if the child never took a breath you can't issue a birth certificate for a person who was never born.

Anyhow, I seldom get involved in abortion discussions, I thought we were going to talk about racial bias or other types of bigoted behaviour. Silly me. The bottom line for me is if you disapprove of abortion for whatever reason, don't have one, it's your body.

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@glitterbag,

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I know that Max wants to make this a discussion of women's health issues, but what does that have to do with racism or bigotry?

The question is whether any political ideology can claim to represent absolute truth. I think this question is relevant in a discussion about bigotry.

Abortion is an interesting counterpoint to FGM. Abortion is relevant in modern Western society it is being practiced in spite of the fact that many people consider it a "barbaric practice". And people oppose it using similar gruesome imagery and strong language.

White educated liberals are an interesting group. They have a loud voice and a fair amount of political leverage. I don't accept that they have any special access to absolute truth. They strongly oppose (and obsess) over FGM, and this is pretty easy issue for them given that social values strongly favor them. But they just is strongly defend the practice of abortion in spite of the fact that many people find it just as objectionable.

The question is, who decides what absolute truth is? Who judges which of these practices are acceptable and which are unjust?

Any discussion on these issues is met with personal attacks and name-calling, rather than any attempt to reason through these difficult issues. And the political bubbles are stronger and divided than ever.

That is the definition of bigotry (even if you are absolutely sure you are right).

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@maxdancona,

enjoy your abortion debate.

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@glitterbag,

It is not about abortion (I am just using abortion as an counterpoint). It is about bigotry.

Just because someone is absolutely sure he or she is right, doesn't mean it isn't bigotry. Bigotry isn't about what beliefs you hold, it is about how you treat people who have different beliefs. Whether you can question your own beliefs, or accept people who disagree with you without attacking them personally... these are the things that are important in a discussion about bigotry.

In our current political climate, showing respect for people who disagree with you on issues is rare. The habit is to attack, rather than to question or to understand.

The abortion issue is a good example. The question is at what point a fetus is a human life that should be protected. If you believe that life begins at conception than the issue is the life of the baby. To say that this belief is somehow an attack on women is dishonest, and nasty.... it is an example of deliberately misstating the sincerely held beliefs of people in order to attack personally, rather than to respond to them as human beings.

You can disagree with someone respectfully. You can trust their humanity and the sincerity of their beliefs. You can listen to their points, consider what they are saying, and even admit when they have a valid point. All of these things are helpful in reaching common ground and helping our society move forward.

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@Olivier5,

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I said: We all agree very much that infant genital mutilation is immoral and that we shouldn't do it to our children...

This is subjective. Not all people, as you so boldly proclaim would consider these practices to be either immoral or mutilation. Each culture and society has its own ideas and standards for what is and what isn't right or wrong. Neither you nor I can speak for everyone, we speak only for our own individual self.

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@Glennn,

That's moral posturing.

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@maxdancona,

Person A got to decide what person A does, and person B decides what she does, each based on their interest, capabilities, and moral standards. Moral sense is like the sense of smell: i can't use yours and you can't use mine. So indeed, morality cannot possibly be absolute (nothing is absolute anyway). It's relative to the observer.

However, you can find moral tenets that are near universal. IMO they are part of human nature in some way, as profound aversions. Like killing a baby, or a child. Not that it's never done but if you ask around you won't find many people who say it's morally okay.

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@Finn dAbuzz,

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(Interestingly enough it has been shown that conservatives in general give more money to charity than liberals, and I suspect this is because the latter looks, largely, to the State to address immoral acts (with their tax dollars). Whether or not this meets our moral obligations is a subject for a separate discussion)

That, or conservatives are more prone to lying to interviewers about how good a person they are... Smile

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@Sturgis,

In this sentence, "we" stands for "us posting on this thread". I didn't mean to speak on behalf of the whole human race, and agree with you and Max that morality is always (by nature) subjective.

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@maxdancona,

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You can disagree with someone respectfully. You can trust their humanity and the sincerity of their beliefs. You can listen to their points, consider what they are saying, and even admit when they have a valid point.

Yeah but where's the fun in that? Expressing moral outrage 24/7 helps people with poor self-esteem feel good about themselves, and at zero cost... ;-)

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@Olivier5,

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Expressing moral outrage 24/7 helps people with poor self-esteem feel good about themselves

Describe what moral outrage looks like to you.

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That's moral posturing.

No. It was just a statement and a question.

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@maxdancona,

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Abortion is an interesting counterpoint to FGM.

No it's not. You are comparing a female's right to determine whether or not she desires to be a mother with a mother's right to cut the clitoris off her child who is no longer dependent on her for life. Your analogy doesn't apply.

If a woman becomes pregnant, she has a choice as to whether or not she desires to become a mother. If she gets an abortion, that's her business because it's her body and her life, and not yours.

Also, you said that your daughter became a person when she was conceived. Following that line of reasoning, using a spermicide is murder, then. Do you believe that using a spermicide or the morning-after-pill is murder?

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@Glennn,

I think you understood me very well.

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Bigot? Racist? Something Else?

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