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De constructing Darwinism

 
 
gungasnake
 
  -1  
Reply Thu 16 Feb, 2017 11:30 pm
Like I say, what kind of mutation is gonna change down feathers into flight feathers ONLY ON THE THERAPOD'S ARMS (where they'll be needed after some other mutation changes those arms into wings), and not on his head, his stomach, his ass, or his dick??
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Feb, 2017 11:52 pm
@gungasnake,
Quote:

Like I say, what kind of mutation is gonna change down feathers into flight feathers ONLY ON THE THERAPOD'S ARMS (where they'll be needed after some other mutation changes those arms into wings), and not on his head, his stomach, his ass, or his dick??


Youre not helping your attempt at argument by denying that sequential systemic gene expression s govern exactly such an occurence . Chickens and turkeys develop xactly that way, while ostriches and ratites develop stubby wing feathers and downy feathers elsewhere. How about birds that develop as naked chicks that need to be cared for more closely (like robins thrushes, owls ,hawks and eagles). Then these birds develop downy feathers that are quickly replaced by smooth asymmetric feathers and symmetric fethers on non flight surfaces.
Gen expression governs all these things, from the apparance of teeth in sequence in primates, to losses of "egg appurtanences " in some birds.
All these can be turned of and on and , things like genes for vestigial teeth on brds are all a matter of gene expression , not always Mutation.


TomTomBinks
 
  2  
Reply Fri 17 Feb, 2017 12:01 am
@gungasnake,
Quote:
And the people who tell us that the planet is 4B years old are the same cretins who try to go on telling us that dinosaurs died out 65,000,000 years ago.

Right. I see you posted a picture of a dinosaur. He doesn't look NEARLY that old.
gungasnake
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 17 Feb, 2017 02:06 am
@TomTomBinks,
The most common dinosaur petroglyph was the stegosaur ("Mishipishu") glyph such as the one in the picture at Agawa Rock, Massinaw Lake Superior Canada.

Amerind oral traditions describe Mishipishu, which means "Water Panther", as having red fur, a sawblade back, and a "great spiked tail" which he used as a weapon, i.e. as a stegosaur. Lewis and Clark describede their native guides being in mortal terror of such glyphs around the Mississippi river. The original meaning of the glyphs was "Caution, one of these things LIVES here".
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Feb, 2017 11:46 am
@gungasnake,
Weve gone over this Mishipishu so many times. I thought Set had closed the door on you quite well. Seems you dont listen at all do you??
Well, heres a Hypothesis about Mishipishu nd human interaction.
Seems the latest evidence has claimed that several archeological sites in the Eastern and central (great Lakes)US have provided C14 dates from shellfish shells, ashes and alph track dates from low fired pottery shards that all hover around 15000 to 21000 years ago. These sites also hover around supporting a European ources for the human settlers in the US. Its possible that these Mishipishu were actully Glyptodonts or Giant Cqsteroides (ll these were giant sized mammals that had "club tails" nd the Glyptodon actually had scales (It was a giant armadillo).


These animals last appeared around the 12000 yer level. Could it be thqt the petroglyphs were more realistically some form of a Megafuna common to the late Pleistocene and dying out by the early Holocene??


As the Solutrean Source hypothesis turns up more qnd more dates of arlier settlement by humans in the Eastern North America, maybe your thoughts about Pleistocene stegosaurs will chnge to more realistic fauna at the time.

We hqve no Pleistocene fossils of stegosaurs but we do have fauna (megamammals)who sort of match the mishupishi drawings.

Just a thought.

Quote:
Lewis and Clark described their native guides being in mortal terror of such glyphs around the Mississippi river.
Being afraid of a drawing is not evidence of anything except that they had some good imaginations. HAs anyone ever seen one of these beasts? Any fossils?
Leadfoot
 
  2  
Reply Fri 17 Feb, 2017 12:40 pm
@farmerman,
Quote:
Gen expression governs all these things, from the apparance of teeth in sequence in primates, to losses of "egg appurtanences " in some birds.
All these can be turned of and on and , things like genes for vestigial teeth on brds are all a matter of gene expression , not always Mutation.

This either moves the 'miracle' from one place to another, or adds yet another level of coding to the already mindboggling complex and indirect ones we already knew.

Either way, a fresh pair of unbiased eyes would look at it and say 'This was no accident.'
TomTomBinks
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Feb, 2017 12:59 pm
@farmerman,
Quote:
We hqve no Pleistocene fossils of stegosaurs but we do have fauna (megamammals)who sort of match the mishupishi drawings.

Logical. Reasonable. Informed. You should take a lesson, Gunga.
gungasnake
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 17 Feb, 2017 01:08 pm
@TomTomBinks,
That is neither logical nor well informed. There is no modern animal with a saw-blade back and a "great spiked tail" which he uses as a weapon.

"Farmerman" is not an expert at any of this; Vine Deloria was an expert in this area and he said Mishipishu was a stegosaur. The glyphs say he's a stegosaur and carvings in other parts of the world in fact show stegosaurs.
farmerman
 
  2  
Reply Fri 17 Feb, 2017 02:43 pm
@gungasnake,
he he. Vine Deloria was a historian, I am an earth scientist. He dealt in myths, I deal in facts and evidence. Gunga is trying his damndest to play in my court so I try to get him to keep up.
I read "Custer Died for your Sins" when I was a kid.It was OK but nota scientific treatise. I actually met phil DeLoria a few times when we did U cleanup work in the Dine Nations
Gunga is limited by his myth based worldview. sad
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Feb, 2017 02:45 pm
@Leadfoot,
At least gene expression and concommitent developmental changes in the phenotype is understandable.
Id look at some of Bayhoffs PAM work and you too will better understand "off and On" in gene expression
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Feb, 2017 02:47 pm
@Leadfoot,
Quote:
Either way, a fresh pair of unbiased eyes would look at it and say 'This was no accident.
SO, you say that a "fresh unbiased set of eyes" would throw up its arms and claim "We will never know how this works"??

I actually xpect that from gunga
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Feb, 2017 04:34 pm
@farmerman,
Quote:
"We will never know how this works"??

Actually science has been saying that about a few things, Big Bang for example. Even you have allowed that the early evidence of abiogenesis is 'lost to time' or something to that effect.

I, OTOH, am confident that we will absolutely know how this works someday :-)
0 Replies
 
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Feb, 2017 05:20 pm
@Leadfoot,
Quote:
Either way, a fresh pair of unbiased eyes would look at it and say 'This was no accident.'

You beg the question when you assert that a fresh pair of unbiased eyes would look at it and say 'this was no accident.'
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Feb, 2017 10:21 pm
@InfraBlue,
Wink Wink Wink .

Unbiased but opinions previously spoken for.
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 18 Feb, 2017 03:17 am
Sauropod glyph at Natural Bridges, Utah (Katchina Bridge):

https://cdn-assets.answersingenesis.org/img/articles/2011/03/petroglyph.jpg

If you can believe it, the idiot evolosers claim that image is of a snake and the four legs just sort of happened naturally. I mean, when did you ever see a snake coil itself into a position like that, with or without legs???
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Feb, 2017 05:49 am
@gungasnake,
Ive never seen this on but appqrently it too has been debunked by the same paleontologists that were associated with the UNC teams that discovered and analyzed the "soft" T-rex tissue.

Quote:
"Dinosaur" petroglyphs at Kachina Bridge site, Natural Bridges National Monument, southeastern Utah: not dinosaurs after all
Phil Senter and Sally J. Cole

ABSTRACT

Among the many images made by prehistoric people on the walls of Kachina Bridge is what appears to be an unambiguous depiction of a sauropod dinosaur, herein called Dinosaur 1. Because mainstream science has produced no alternate explanation for Dinosaur 1, it has become an important weapon in the arsenal of the anti-evolution movement. The movement's proponents claim that it demonstrates the coexistence of humans and dinosaurs, thus casting doubt on the geological time scale of millions of years. Until now that claim has gone unchallenged. The hypothesis that a given petroglyph depicts a dinosaur predicts that the image is not a composite; depicts an animal; has features that cannot be reconciled with non-dinosaurian local fauna; has features of a specific, identifiable dinosaur; and is entirely human-made. These predictions were tested for Dinosaur 1 and three other alleged dinosaur petroglyphs at Kachina Bridge by on-site visual examination under varying light conditions. Examination reveals that the "neck" and "back" of Dinosaur 1 are a composite of two separate petroglyphs, and its "legs" are a natural mud or mineral stain. A second alleged sauropod petroglyph is a mere mud stain. The other two alleged dinosaur petroglyphs are human-made, but neither depicts an animal. The four Kachina Bridge "dinosaurs" are illusions produced by pareidolia. None of them satisfy the predictions of the hypothesis that a dinosaur is depicted. Dinosaur 1—heretofore a creationist poster child—and its counterparts now join the plethora of discredited "evidence" for the ancient coexistence of humans and dinosaurs.

Phil Senter. Department of Natural Sciences, Fayetteville State University, 1200 Murchison Road, Fayetteville, North Carolina 28301, USA
Sally Cole, archaeological consultant and author, Dolores, Colorado, USA
Lets say that this pwtroglyph IS as you say it is (and not a paredoilia example). Where are the dinosaurs and evidence of the same. There are no fossils ANYWHERE IN THE ENTIRE WORLD, that are of true dinosaurs, that can be seen in ANY sediments later than the Terminal Maastrichtian (very top of the Cretaceous) , There are NO dinosaur FOSSILs that , similRLY, that can be found in the basal Paleocene aged rocks.
This is a scientific fact. Qll the dating techniques coalesce qround a "good-bye" date for all dinosaurs no more recent than 65 million years(+/- )0.0002.MM). That pretty damned good repeatablity.
Youve presented two dubious petroglyphs
1. A Native American petroglyph that is supposed to be a stegosaurus (with very small serrations on its back, and the hed of a DEER (gunga failed to show that this petroglyph clearly shows ANTLERS). I ont know of ANY stegosauri fossils that looked like Rudolph)

2 A dubious petroglyph that has been examined by a paleontologist and an archaeologist that have published an investigation on the nature of this one qnd found it to be pretty much one or two snake carvings with drip mark "legs" and other natural features derived from erosion and water drips.

Ive seen the one in Minnesota and its , to me, its all imagination. Hence the Mishipishu account that Setanta first clipped. The Par Service agrees with Set. Theyve been kinda maintaining their senses of humor about this one because it a "cause celebre" of the Creationism Crowd. They have a back story and a whole scenario that involves a GREAT FLOOD (another evidence-free occurence). SO , like Mkele Mbembi, We can only wait till non-cartoon evidence shows up. (Otherwise the Creationists will start using Alley Oop or BC comic strips as evidence of their belief)

Id like to go see the Utah "Apatosaur" glyph to satisfy my first hand account need. I recall, from several trips out to Utah, the Morrison Formation, is an ancient Jurrasic "seaside Formation" Lots of sauropod tracks and fossils exist. Could the Anasazi found a fossil and created cartoon? Or is it as Senter nd Cole state?
I hardly think that contemporary "dinosaurs" existed, except in the minds of Creationists








0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 18 Feb, 2017 07:43 am
formerman...

Quote:
Examination reveals that the "neck" and "back" of Dinosaur 1 are a composite of two separate petroglyphs, and its "legs" are a natural mud or mineral stain....


http://www.dictionary.com/browse/bullshit
0 Replies
 
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Feb, 2017 08:15 am
@InfraBlue,
Quote:
You beg the question when you assert that a fresh pair of unbiased eyes would look at it and say 'this was no accident.'

Given the public context of this conversation, you may exclude me from the list. The question it begs is for every individual to look at it themselves and decide.

We all consider ourselves unbiased
0 Replies
 
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Feb, 2017 08:25 am
The 'mineral stain' reference cracked me up. Aren't almost all petroglyphs made by staining the cave walls with some available mineral?

If for nothing else, that 'debunking' article was **** for its lack of precision.
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Feb, 2017 09:38 am
@Leadfoot,
well, the very "Deconstructing Darwinism" proposal is the very definition of pudding for brains. Anybody that is so convinced as to the existence of Jurassic and Cretaceous reptiles by "model-less" cartoon-like petroglyphs and then makes believe that Amerinds were contemporaries of dinosaurs is about as gullible a folk as we can imagine.

If you wish to believe that the US west and great lakes are populated with live dinosaurs, I cant stop you.
Just dont go round criticizing someone whose actually tried to analyze the Utah petroglyph as "unscientific" . Youre hardly technically equipped to even draw up such comments. You and gunga are about as close minded as I see.













 

 
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