11
   

Should the 2016 Olympics be ditched in its entirety?

 
 
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Aug, 2016 05:32 am
@Robert Gentel,
Robert Gentel wrote:
And that should legitimately be criticized. Some idiots were whipping others. But when the US hosted the Olympics once an idiot bombed and killed people. You didn't call those Olympics a disaster and some idiots whipping people certainly doesn't make a games a disaster either.

The Atlanta bomber was a lone crackpot. The horsewhipping of peaceful democracy protesters was done by the security forces of the state that was putting on the Olympics.

It is true that I don't call the Atlanta games a disaster, but the corrupt international Olympic body that favors third-world nations over the United States derided them pretty severely, and they sneered when they did it. (I sneered right back at them.)


Robert Gentel wrote:
It's just a prejudiced way of thinking that when developed nations have real disasters, like having a bunch of athletes kidnapped and murdered during the Olympics, few of you say that they should be precluded from hosting again.

While I don't blame Germany for the attacks, I sneer at the international Olympic body for their cavalier attitude towards those attacks.
Robert Gentel
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 Aug, 2016 10:31 am
@oralloy,
oralloy wrote:
Concentration matters. I don't think this issue is being inflated. If anything, I think it isn't being covered enough. The rowing events are being held in raw sewage, as are the sailing events.


Saying that they are held in "raw sewage" and that there is "FECAL MATTER!" is to ignore that concentration matters. We too have waters with "FECAL MATTER!" and it is the concentration that is important. Rio does have water whose level of pollution deserves criticism, but the notion that it is apocalyptically polluted and that we should cancel the games is incredibly hyperbolic. Millions of tourists visit Rio and swim and the problem is being greatly exaggerated.

Quote:
The beaches that tourists swim in, and where some athletes will swim at, may not be at the level of raw sewage, but the concentration is still unacceptably high.


Sure, and these problems with reasoned criticism make sense to point out. Acting like it is a natural disaster and that the games can't be held just fine doesn't.
Robert Gentel
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 Aug, 2016 10:40 am
@oralloy,
oralloy wrote:
The Atlanta bomber was a lone crackpot. The horsewhipping of peaceful democracy protesters was done by the security forces of the state that was putting on the Olympics.


No, the Cossacks are an non-state militia, and the Russian police showed up to disrupt their attack on Pussy Riot and Russian authorities vowed to prosecute them.

In any case, no serious injury was caused and my point is that their games were more successful from a security standpoint that our Atlanta games. But when bad things happen in America we see it as situational, jee whiz something bad happened ("just some lone wolf"). When it happens in developing countries Americans often see it as dispositional (their culture and standards are just not up to snuff, they aren't good enough to host). This is a fundamental attribution error.

Quote:
It is true that I don't call the Atlanta games a disaster, but the corrupt international Olympic body that favors third-world nations over the United States derided them pretty severely, and they sneered when they did it. (I sneered right back at them.)


No, they did not. And the notion that they favor third world nations is completely disconnected from reality. Developing nations have hardly ever hosted the games, and I think this is the first time that the continent it is on has ever hosted it, while it has been hosted in America many times.

Here is the list of hosts, you can see from a quick scan of the list that your claim is not just a bit inaccurate but that it is entirely so, the games are overwhelmingly hosted in developed nations:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Olympic_Games_host_cities#Olympic_host_cities

Look, there is plenty to criticize about the institutions (they are corrupt). There is also plenty to criticize about any nation, and when it comes to infrastructure more to criticize from developing nations than developed nations. This is all true, but the nonsensical hyperbole that I assert is when these criticism reach the hysterical point (there are whole communities dedicated to discussing the "apocalypics" and the disaster they foresee but that will not happen) that those in developed nations think that it will be a complete disaster due to relatively minor problems. This routinely happens each time a developing nation hosts and each time the sky did not fall and the games are successfully hosted. It will happen again here. Rio is not the apocalypse that it is made out to be and just a few years ago it hosted the World Cup successfully.
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 10 Aug, 2016 09:36 am
@Robert Gentel,
Robert Gentel wrote:
oralloy wrote:
The Atlanta bomber was a lone crackpot. The horsewhipping of peaceful democracy protesters was done by the security forces of the state that was putting on the Olympics.

No, the Cossacks are an non-state militia,

The Cossacks work for the Russian government. They do have a sort of unofficial role. But that doesn't mean they aren't government agents. Rather it means that they are used to do things that would be considered illegal for normal government officials to do.

Russia is a dictatorship. There are agents who will carry out Putin's will no matter how illegal it is.


Robert Gentel wrote:
and the Russian police showed up to disrupt their attack on Pussy Riot

All the reports that I heard said the police stood around and just let the Cossacks do their thing.

And that is what I would expect of a brutal dictatorship. Ordinary police wouldn't dare to interfere when the dictator's agents were suppressing the people.


Robert Gentel wrote:
and Russian authorities vowed to prosecute them.

I'm sure that's what the KGB propaganda office told the world.


Robert Gentel wrote:
In any case, no serious injury was caused

Horsewhipping peaceful democracy protesters in public may not have caused any serious injuries, but it was still a perfect example of everything that is wrong with the Olympics.


Robert Gentel wrote:
and my point is that their games were more successful from a security standpoint that our Atlanta games.

I see the Russian security as a negative. Something to sneer at.


Robert Gentel wrote:
But when bad things happen in America we see it as situational, jee whiz something bad happened ("just some lone wolf"). When it happens in developing countries Americans often see it as dispositional (their culture and standards are just not up to snuff, they aren't good enough to host). This is a fundamental attribution error.

An attack from a lone crackpot is legitimately different from the ruthless suppression of a dictatorship.


Robert Gentel wrote:
oralloy wrote:
It is true that I don't call the Atlanta games a disaster, but the corrupt international Olympic body that favors third-world nations over the United States derided them pretty severely, and they sneered when they did it. (I sneered right back at them.)

No, they did not.

I remember when they did it.


Robert Gentel wrote:
And the notion that they favor third world nations is completely disconnected from reality. Developing nations have hardly ever hosted the games, and I think this is the first time that the continent it is on has ever hosted it, while it has been hosted in America many times.

Here is the list of hosts, you can see from a quick scan of the list that your claim is not just a bit inaccurate but that it is entirely so, the games are overwhelmingly hosted in developed nations:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Olympic_Games_host_cities#Olympic_host_cities

When they sneer at us for being a first world country, and they openly praise Olympics at third-world countries (preferably ruthless dictatorships), it is reasonable to say that they favor third-world dictatorships.
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Wed 10 Aug, 2016 09:38 am
@Robert Gentel,
Robert Gentel wrote:
oralloy wrote:
Concentration matters. I don't think this issue is being inflated. If anything, I think it isn't being covered enough. The rowing events are being held in raw sewage, as are the sailing events.

Saying that they are held in "raw sewage" and that there is "FECAL MATTER!" is to ignore that concentration matters.

When I say raw sewage, I am referring to a level of concentration. We close beaches when bad things reach concentrations measured in thousands per liter. The rowing events are in water that has concentrations of bad things measured in hundreds-of-millions per liter.


Robert Gentel wrote:
We too have waters with "FECAL MATTER!" and it is the concentration that is important.

Our concentrations stay below hundreds per liter or the beach is closed. The beaches in Rio are open to swimmers with concentrations of bad things in the thousands per liter. The rowing events are taking place in water with a concentration of a quarter billion bad things per liter.


Robert Gentel wrote:
Rio does have water whose level of pollution deserves criticism, but the notion that it is apocalyptically polluted and that we should cancel the games is incredibly hyperbolic.

I would suggest moving the events to somewhere where the water is not polluted. An alternate spot was suggested for the sailing event, but they chose to keep the sailing event going in raw sewage because they wanted Rio as an immediate backdrop to the sailboats.

And I would suggest draining and sterilizing the diving pool. Those poor women competitors last night had to dive into slime.


Robert Gentel wrote:
Millions of tourists visit Rio and swim and the problem is being greatly exaggerated.

I wouldn't even walk barefoot on the beach sand, were I visiting.


Robert Gentel wrote:
Acting like it is a natural disaster and that the games can't be held just fine doesn't.

It might be a disaster to the people who end up capsizing in raw sewage. There is an American doctor in the rowing events. She knows better than most people how dangerous this water is. The look of horror on her face when she nearly capsized a few days ago said everything.
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Wed 10 Aug, 2016 09:42 am
@oralloy,
oralloy wrote:
And I would suggest draining and sterilizing the diving pool. Those poor women competitors last night had to dive into slime.

http://d.ifengimg.com/q70/p2.ifengimg.com/a/2016_33/f81b118877dbbd5_size1918_w1112_h616.png
Robert Gentel
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Aug, 2016 11:17 am
@oralloy,
It is an algae bloom, someone set the temperature too high. I don't think it is possible to drain and replace in time (takes a long time to fill a pool and treat the water) but the good news is that while it looks ugly as hell it has no negative health implications.
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Aug, 2016 11:36 am
@Robert Gentel,
That pool situation was odd. One of the CBC reporters commented on how quickly the water turned green. He said it happened in about half an hour.

With the recent weather, I admit I'm concerned about the rowers and sailors. I wouldn't want to go in water that was reasonably clean to begin with as storms stir up muck.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/rio-olympics-sewage-1.3704804

I'm glad Rio got the Olympics, but I wish the committee had been tougher with them around water quality when the test results weren't satisfactory.
Robert Gentel
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Aug, 2016 02:20 pm
@ehBeth,
Definitely agree that they should care more about the water quality than the optics, though I think the problems are exaggerated (as people are wont to do with problems), there is definitely plenty of clean water available.
0 Replies
 
Robert Gentel
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Aug, 2016 02:28 pm
@oralloy,
oralloy wrote:
The Cossacks work for the Russian government. They do have a sort of unofficial role. But that doesn't mean they aren't government agents. Rather it means that they are used to do things that would be considered illegal for normal government officials to do.


I've heard that theory about this event but it doesn't make a lot of sense. First of all, no they don't work for the government. They have been part of self-governance but they are a militia. But I'll get to the part that really doesn't make sense in this theory next....

Quote:
Russia is a dictatorship. There are agents who will carry out Putin's will no matter how illegal it is.


I agree and happen to be someone willing to not grant the games to hosts on political grounds, but the notion that those Cossacks were carrying out Putin's will fundamentally misunderstands Putin's will. Prior to the games he released them from prison early to try to show a softer side to the west while he was under the spotlight and if he didn't want them dancing it up at the games he would have just kept them locked up and serving their extant sentences. The Cossack's public attack on them was a black eye to Putin, not something he ordered. He was trying to play up his benevolent side at the time. If he didn't want them protesting he would have just kept them in jail or bundled them off in vans out of sight, not ordered them horsewhipped by colorfully-dressed idiots in plain public.
0 Replies
 
Robert Gentel
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Aug, 2016 02:32 pm
@oralloy,
oralloy wrote:
I would suggest moving the events to somewhere where the water is not polluted. An alternate spot was suggested for the sailing event, but they chose to keep the sailing event going in raw sewage because they wanted Rio as an immediate backdrop to the sailboats.


You'll find no disagreement with me here, there is plenty of clean water nearby and the optics of Rio's landscape is not worth the bad optics and hyperbole that not moving it causes.

Quote:
And I would suggest draining and sterilizing the diving pool. Those poor women competitors last night had to dive into slime.


It's just an algae bloom, it's ugly and hurts visibility for viewers but is not something that is harmful.


Quote:
Robert Gentel wrote:
Millions of tourists visit Rio and swim and the problem is being greatly exaggerated.

I wouldn't even walk barefoot on the beach sand, were I visiting.


And this, in my opinion, is a ridiculously timid approach to take to the world. Millions of people do this every year without incident and Rio has great beaches that are definitely worth exploring if you have the opportunity. Much of the interesting and beautiful things in the world live in developing nations with developing nation problems. I, for one, do not want to live in a tiny bubble and see this kind of thinking as inordinate paranoia.
Finn dAbuzz
  Selected Answer
 
  0  
Reply Sun 14 Aug, 2016 04:08 pm
The hell with the color of the water in the pool. When was the last time you heard numerous reports of Olympic athletes being the victims of armed robbery in the host city?
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Sun 14 Aug, 2016 06:32 pm
I'm a sucker though for the Olympic athletes.

Somehow they always manage to transcend the tawdry corruption of the organizers and, to be fair, the nationalistic cheating that marred so many prior Olympics seems to be well under control.
0 Replies
 
Robert Gentel
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Aug, 2016 01:45 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Rio is a pretty dangerous place (almost as bad a murder rate as the worst US cities, like Detroit or St. Louis) but it now sounds like the taxi robbery story was made up after an altercation they had where they were accused of vandalizing a gas station (for reportedly pissing on it and refusing to use the bathrooms and breaking one of its doors) and had a security guard draw on them and detain them while calling police. They paid to settle before police showed up and that seems to be the basis for the claim they were robbed (yet kept their cellphones somehow).

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-37115778
Finn dAbuzz
 
  2  
Reply Thu 18 Aug, 2016 04:25 pm
@Robert Gentel,
Of course, whether or not the swimmers' tale was true, there were numerous other incidents no one is questioning.
0 Replies
 
ossobucotemp
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Aug, 2016 05:18 pm
@Robert Gentel,
What a role change, if true and it does sound like it, from Ryan Lochte the champion to liar before the whole world.. or the smaller world that follows the Olympics.
A minor situation as these things go, but interesting. Hmm, is dad in on the story telling? Maybe not, in which case he'd be irritable now at best.

izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 Aug, 2016 02:45 am
@ossobucotemp,
Unfortunately this fits a rather ugly stereotype, the rude gringo who treats Latin Americans appallingly, waltzes about like they own the place, and expects deferential treatment.

I saw plenty of in when I was on holiday in Mexico, ( admittedly a minority of American of tourists, but a very loud and vocal minority.)

Quote:
The United States Olympic Committee has apologised for what it called the unacceptable behaviour of four US swimmers who falsely said they had been robbed at gunpoint in Rio.


Quote:
Four views of Ryan Lochte

Slate:

"Maybe he's just a lunk, or a doofus, or a Faulknerian idiot man-child, or the real-world analogue of Moose from Archie. There are all sorts of unflattering descriptors that might apply to Ryan Lochte."

Washington Post:

"There is a special category of obnoxious American 'bro' that Lochte represents, in his T-shirt and jeans and expensive suede footwear, which he showed off on Instagram that night at the party along with the price tag. 'We're 6k deep here,' he captioned it. Is there anything worse, in any country, than a bunch of entitled young drunks who break the furniture and pee on a wall?"

San Francisco Chronicle:

"It doesn't matter what else Lochte has done in his Olympic career. This cemented his legacy: most embarrassing Olympic athlete."

New York Post:

"He cried wolf and was called on it, and that will be his burden to bear for a good long while - but not his alone. The Ugly American is alive and well in 2016 thanks to this dope."


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-37127499
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 Aug, 2016 03:43 am
Quote:
US swimmer Jimmy Feigen to pay $11,000 to charity as part of deal to settle Brazil robbery dispute - US media


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-37130024
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 Aug, 2016 09:31 am
@ossobucotemp,
Just goes to show you, you can't trust a guy who keeps dying his hair different colors.
ossobucotemp
 
  2  
Reply Fri 19 Aug, 2016 10:02 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
You made me laugh.. re the hair tie-in.

I've learned more about him this morning, via some article I didn't save, re his age, older than I'd guessed, and all around, uh, behavior.
0 Replies
 
 

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