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the dominion of arrogance do Thou speedily root out in our days?

 
 
Reply Mon 4 Jan, 2016 11:47 pm
Does " the dominion of arrogance do Thou speedily root out in our days" mean "(let) your arrogance send you quickly to death"?

Context:

For apostate let there be no hope, and the dominion of arrogance do Thou speedily root out in our days; and let Christians and minim perish in a moment, let them be blotted out of the book of the living and let them not be written with the righteous.” (Eighteen Benedictions)

(Online information. No more context available)
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Type: Question • Score: 1 • Views: 382 • Replies: 9
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View best answer, chosen by oristarA
FBM
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Jan, 2016 12:05 am
@oristarA,
Try this, spoken to the believers, not the apostates: "You quickly find and eliminate (root out) the power (dominion) of arrogance in our days."
oristarA
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Jan, 2016 12:18 am
@FBM,
FBM wrote:

Try this, spoken to the believers, not the apostates: "You quickly find and eliminate (root out) the power (dominion) of arrogance in our days."


Thanks.
But sorry failed to get you.
Please rewrite "do Thou speedily root out" in plain English if you'd like.
FBM
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Jan, 2016 04:03 am
@oristarA,
oristarA wrote:

Please rewrite "do Thou speedily root out" in plain English if you'd like.


I'm not completely sure if the original is descriptive or a command. If it's descriptive, it's "You quickly find and eliminate..."

If it's a command, which I think it is, it's "Quickly find and eliminate..."
oristarA
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Jan, 2016 04:31 am
@FBM,
FBM wrote:

oristarA wrote:

Please rewrite "do Thou speedily root out" in plain English if you'd like.


I'm not completely sure if the original is descriptive or a command. If it's descriptive, it's "You quickly find and eliminate..."

If it's a command, which I think it is, it's "Quickly find and eliminate..."


Thanks.
But "eliminate" what? Arrogance?
The grammar of "the dominion of arrogance do Thou speedily root out in our days" seems mysterious to me. "do Thou"? Why capitalized thou? "do thou" means "you do"?
FBM
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  2  
Reply Tue 5 Jan, 2016 06:00 am
@oristarA,
Yes, eliminate arrogance. The King James Version of the Bible often describes the unbelievers as arrogant. But my first understanding is wrong, as you'll see below.

First of all, it is a very strange construction for the modern reader. You have to consider that the KJV was written a very long time ago, in the Elizabethan period. It's Early Modern English, but it's very different from today's English. Imagine reading Chinese writing from 2,000 years ago. Wink

Given the capitalization of "Thou," I suspected that it was an address to their god, so I looked it up, and yes, it was a prayer (benediction) to their god:

Quote:
The following benediction was added to the Shemoneh Esreh and is still recited in synagogue services today:

"And for the slanderers (meaning heretics) let there be no hope, and let all wickedness perish as in a moment; let all thine enemies be speedily cut off, and the dominion of arrogance do thou uproot and crush, cast down and humble speedily in our days. Blessed art thou, O Lord, who breakest the enemies and humblest the arrogant."1
The above "blessing" came to be known as the "Benediction on the Minim," which means those belonging to a sect, but was understood to mean "heretics." An older form of the benediction used the word "nozrim," or "Nazarenes," which was an explicit reference to Jewish Christians. While neither term is used today, the original prayer institutionalized the elimination of Jewish believers from the synagogue. Whoever failed to recite that benediction would be removed under suspicion of being a heretic:


http://www.jewsforjesus.org/publications/issues/v12-n05/jewishjesus

So now, I understand the passage to be asking the Christian god to root out and remove Christian Jews (the arrogant ones, heretics) from Jewish worship ceremonies.
oristarA
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Jan, 2016 07:02 am
@FBM,
Excellent.
Sorry for giving you a hard time in analyzing such ancient text.
Luckily, we will only do it occasionally (a time in a year?).
FBM
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Jan, 2016 07:08 am
@oristarA,
No problem. It's often difficult even for English native speakers to understand that old language. I'm curious, though. How difficult is it for you to read 2,000-year-old Chinese texts?
oristarA
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Jan, 2016 07:42 am
@FBM,
FBM wrote:

No problem. It's often difficult even for English native speakers to understand that old language. I'm curious, though. How difficult is it for you to read 2,000-year-old Chinese texts?


I would have to check out exegeses and translations when reading The Analects of Confucius(《论语》) and The Book of Songs (《诗经》).
FBM
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Jan, 2016 07:52 am
@oristarA,
That's what I thought. That's why there are so many English translations of the Bible. The KJV is a pain in the ass to read. ^^
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