My belief in God, seperate from religion...

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"Much to our relief, we discovered we did not need to consider another's conception of God. Our own conception, however inadequate, was sufficient to make the approach and to effect a contact with Him. As soon as we admitted the possible existence of a Creative Intelligence, a Spirit of the Universe underlying the totality of things, we began to be possessed of a new sense of power and direction, provided we took other simple steps. We found that God does not make too hard terms with those who seek Him. To us, the Realm of Spirit is broad, roomy, all inclusive; never exclusive or forbidding to those who earnestly seek. It is open, we believe, to all men.
When, therefore, we speak to you of God, we mean your own conception of God. This applies, too, to other spiritual expressions which you find in this book. Do not let any prejudice you may have against spiritual terms deter you from honestly asking yourself what they mean to you. At the start, this was all we needed to commence spiritual growth, to effect our first conscious relation with God as we understood Him. Afterward, we found ourselves accepting many things which then seemed entirely out of reach. That was growth, but if we wished to grow we had to begin somewhere. So we used our own conception, however limited it was."
--Alcoholics Anonymous pg's 46-47

In my own experience and as I witness with my own eyes in other people who come in hopeless and beaten down by their alcoholism, the people who work the steps have a spiritual experience and are relieved of their obsession. Of the ones who do not I cannot wholly account, in my 3 years of sobriety I know of at least 3 who have died drunk, many go out and come back in, most I may never see again. I've probably heard 1000 different conceptions of God, some are pretty out there, some are pretty simple. Today I believe there is one God, but that God is not limited to any one or any number of human conceptions. I think it's basically as simple as "Those who seek find" and God will reveal Himself to each individual as they could come to recognize Him.

I have to continue to work on my spiritual condition on a daily basis, and that means consistent practice of conscious contact with my Higher Power (ie: prayer and meditation), regular inventory of my thoughts and actions coupled with a willingness to do better, and service to God and others. I can come to know Gods will in MY life and MY life alone, I do not pretend to know God's plan for anyone or anything outside of myself.

No restrictions on God other than the belief that (at least if you want to recover from chronic hopeless alcoholism) you need to find one.
My Conception of God today is this -- Either God is, or isn't...and for me "God is" ...I do prefer the term "Spirit of the Universe" but I no longer worry over the terminology. I read the Bible along with any other spiritual text I can generally get my hands on, I really love C.S. Lewis's works.

Today for me it's not about always doing the right thing, my ego causes me to fall short of perfect everyday of my life and always will, I cannot change my nature. However, when I make an honest effort to seek out the weaknesses in my character that cause me to harm others or myself and ask God to hang on to those for me. He will, and then I can go about my business without them and for me anytime I can get out of my own way its generally a pretty good day Smile

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[+4] - rosborne979 - 12/14/2015C.S. Lewis was a thoughtful writer. Good luck on your path.

@BillyBarnes89,

C.S. Lewis was a thoughtful writer. Good luck on your path.

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But if you can consider any definition of god valid, then does that not eliminate the need for the concept of god?

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@manored,

Sure. I have no need for a fixed conCEPT. I have a conceptION which allows for change as my experience with the God of my understanding evolves. More is always revealed, but I could never pretend or expect to understand God. I think the acceptance of a human limitation to perceive an infinite God is an essential aspect of faith.

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But if god can be anything, and is beyond human comprehension, then why would we pray to it or seek its guidance? Why would we expect answers?

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@manored,

First of all, I do not believe it is correct to make the assumption that anyone should ever "expect" anything from God. But without ever asking, no one would ever really know if It had the power to give in the first place.

And before you would ever ask It/God anything you would have to question or consider It's existence. Even before you could consider It's existence you would have to have some preconceived idea of what "It" was, THAT idea I'm saying is neither right nor wrong. And it doesn't have to be the same as anyone else's.

I mostly draw this conclusion based on my personal experience/observations.
1.) Having been raised in a christian family and taught that there was only one God, and only one way to come to know that God.
2.) Later, having come to AA and observing people with many conceptions of God, seeking those individual conceptions of God (whether it started off being Jiminey Cricket, The Sun, a Group of Drunks, or any number of religious God concepts), just the action of seeking a Higher Power no matter how limited our first conception was, we each built a relationship with that Power and came to know it in our own ways, however we could each handle thinking of It, yet generally calling it God.

So in my personal experience to answer the question, why would I seek a God I couldn't comprehend and why expect it to do anything for me, the best I can offer are these reasons.
1.) A humble realization that I needed help.
2.) HOPE
3.) Human lack of power.
4.) Curiosity
5.) Purpose
A leap of faith as a result of hoplessness, or as we say "the gift of desperation."
I can't tell you that I KNEW God would do anything for me, certainly not that I expected Him to, just that I hoped He/It whatever It is would. And It did, and does.

I can really only speak for myself personally, I can't really answer why anyone else would seek God. But from my own experience I would always recommend it. Not because having a God in my life makes me perfect or without pain or suffering, but because I DO receive guidance, and also because with a God I'm never alone.

Also, I might ask "why not?"

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Why not... well, from a logical standpoint, there is no reason to disbelieve the intervention of an invisible greater force. It might be there just as much as it might be not. And psychology suggests humans will always find a greater force if they look for one, regardless of whenever one truly exists or not. We tend to see patterns in causality.

However, nevertheless, I believe humans should not seek a god. The reason is simple: Why attribute to another being something you can attribute to yourself? It seems to me that it is simpler, and more empowering, to accept that the power people gain from divine inspiration comes from their own being, from the confidence they now have and before did not because they thought being only a human alone in the universe somehow limited them.

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@manored,

My brother-in-law frequently makes a similar argument when we are on the subject.

Always stating that I alone choose to make the changes that have been made in my own life, not a God, and the credit belongs only to me and my "will power"

But when I hear statements like "humans will always find a greater force if they look for one" I feel like this makes the case for the existence of that "greater force." Especially in the use of the word "always."

Perhaps if self-reliance never failed one would never feel a need a look for a greater force. But it does fail.

And if you are stating "the power people gain from divine inspiration" are you not acknowledging there is power to be gained from divine inspiration? And would it not also stand to reason that that power would have never been found if one had never sought it? If I now have confidence that I did not have before, am I not better off because I did seek and did find this Power? And if I myself could not find in me this Power within myself UNTIL I sought it elsewhere, how then could I attribute it to myself?

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@manored,

Quote:

does that not eliminate the need for the concept of god?

Red that's really a good q. Based on apodictical existential pantheist view, it's perfectly okay to either believe or not, because his/her existence is mainly a linguistic, not scientific affair, truth or falsehood being a relative matter

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@BillyBarnes89,

BillyBarnes89 wrote:

But when I hear statements like "humans will always find a greater force if they look for one" I feel like this makes the case for the existence of that "greater force." Especially in the use of the word "always."

But if humans did not always find it, that could merely mean the force has the capacity to be picky or capricious, and such capacity could be an argument in its favor as well. Thus I do not believe it is an evidence of either truth.

BillyBarnes89 wrote:

And if you are stating "the power people gain from divine inspiration" are you not acknowledging there is power to be gained from divine inspiration?

I am, but by "divine inspiration" I mean people's belief that they are being divinely inspired.

BillyBarnes89 wrote:

And would it not also stand to reason that that power would have never been found if one had never sought it? If I now have confidence that I did not have before, am I not better off because I did seek and did find this Power? And if I myself could not find in me this Power within myself UNTIL I sought it elsewhere, how then could I attribute it to myself?

I believe that doesn't necessarily need to be a belief into a greater being in order for people to be able to find great willpower within themselves, its just that our society, from a cultural standpoint, offers very little encouragement or support for such a viewpoint.

Religion, for example, which still has a very strong influence in the worldview of even those who do not align themselves with one, often pregates that humans are helpless and weak without the guidance of god. In the realm of the mind belief often equals truth, and the more we are told that we are helpless without god, the more we indeed become helpless without believing into some kind of god.

Atheistic worldviews are not much better in that regard either, as they often presents humans as little more than biological machines severely limited in both body and mind, whilst underestimating our potential for changing our bodies and habits if we commit our minds to it enough.

If I were to say that an addict can overcome his addiction simply by trying harder, most people would say that's impossible, that the very definition of addiction is that he cannot overcome it by just trying harder. Its the fact that we believe it to be impossible that indeed makes it impossible.

All that said, I do, however, think its better to believe in a god than to remain a hopeless addict.

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