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Did Christ ever advocate violence against non-Christians?

 
 
au1929
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Aug, 2004 05:32 pm
I will just add one last word and let it go at that. There is no way you or anyone else can present "evidence" that what is written in the bible or taught the religious institutions is fact. You can explain and interpret [according to your belief} but give evidence, hardly. Evidence does not exist.
Normally I would be benign when it comes to religion. However, I am insenced by that guy in the White House throwing his religion in my face.
And blurring the lines between church and state.
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Aug, 2004 05:32 pm
A thread like this makes me realise how utterly ignorant I am about certain topics or eras ...
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Aug, 2004 07:22 pm
I think we're all more ignorant in some areas than others. And some subjects are just more interesting than others. Relatively few people other than seminarians delve deeply into religious studies. For me it is fascinating. Somebody else might not find it so.

You are so well educated in so many other areas, Nimh, I don't know where you would have found the time to work in serious religious education. Smile
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Chuckster
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Aug, 2004 06:29 am
The hardly "hidden message" seems to be that Jesus wouldn't approve of the US being engaged in a war...so it is wrong and our government led by George Bush is wrong...even though the US was attacked over a period of a decade by terrorists who are in fact financed and supported by several Islamo-facist nation-states. So "Make it Go Away!". Right?
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Aug, 2004 06:32 am
Actually, this thread was motivated by a contention on the part of one of our members that Islam is dedicated to the extermination of all infidels, and that this is not and never has been a goal of christians. Therefore, inferentially, christianity is superior to Islam.

But don't let me interfer with your personal stalking horse, you have a big time . . .
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Chuckster
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Aug, 2004 07:31 am
Well thanks. Those thoughts were not all that clear that far into the thread.
Sorry for telegraphing my punch. The "metatalk" fogs so much intent at times it's hard to be patient.
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extra medium
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Aug, 2004 01:57 pm
How about this verse:

Luke 22:36-
"Then said Jesus unto them, 'But now, ... he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.'"

Why would Jesus advise folks to buy a sword?
This appears to be tending towards violence...?
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Aug, 2004 02:07 pm
The context this is found is when Jesus was giving the disciples the last instructions just before his arrest and trial. The scriptures are explicit that Jesus understood what he was in for and it is possible he thought the disciples might need to defend themselves in any chaos that would follow. Strangely when they were able to produce two swords from among them, he stated those would be enough. Then when during the arrest, one of them used a sword to defend him, Jesus stopped them.

Putting the passage in context, it is difficult to make a case that the sword was intended to initiate violence.
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Chuckster
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Aug, 2004 02:46 pm
Under the Room Header of S & R there proceeds a prissy tit-for-tat barely concealing some sneaky attempt to score a point for criticising the US and a Coalition of 65 other countries from around the world for prosequting a program of self-defense, regime change and liberation of nation states engaged in fostering world terror. Inspite of comments to the contrary this stuff is a silly waste of time and a deliberate misuse of this forum.
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Aug, 2004 02:59 pm
I disagree Chuckster. I think it was a valid question and has produced some thought provoking discussion. This is especially pertinent since some polls indicate that a majority of Christians do support the President and the war in Iraq, and good Christians always have to consider whether or not God would approve of what we do.
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au1929
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Aug, 2004 06:07 pm
Fox said
Quote:
This is especially pertinent since some polls indicate that a majority of Christians do support the President and the war in Iraq, and good Christians always have to consider whether or not God would approve of what we do.


Horse$hit. The president has to consider whether the American people would approve of what he does. Contrary to what he thinks God did not anoint him as president the electorate with a push from the supreme court did.
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au1929
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Aug, 2004 06:14 pm
Fox
I would add that your previous statement is the thing I fear most. When a particular religious group gains enough power to make the rules for all of us. This is a secular nation and the day it stops being so is the day we lose our freedom of religion and who knows what else
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Aug, 2004 07:10 pm
Au, please read exactly what I said. I was speaking generically of what most Christians expect of themselves and why it is not alarming to them when their president is a Christian. Now if you have a problem with that, I can't do a dang thing about it. You're just going to have to be grumpy and mad.
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extra medium
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Aug, 2004 09:45 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
. The scriptures are explicit that Jesus understood what he was in for and it is possible he thought the disciples might need to defend themselves in any chaos that would follow. Putting the passage in context, it is difficult to make a case that the sword was intended to initiate violence.


Okay, I guess I can accept that answer (with some reservation).
You are conceding, then, that Jesus thought it was okay for them to use violence to defend themselves?

Your original question on this thread was: Did Christ ever advocate violence against non-Christians?"
Please don't change the question at this point to "Did Christ advocate initiating violence...?" That was not your original question.

It appears that in this case, you are saying he did advocate it. You are saying he told them to buy swords to defend themselves. In my book, this is violence.

What about turning the other cheek?

I am truly searching for the truth here. On one hand he says turn the other cheek. On the other hand, he says buy swords to defend yourselves. It doesn't appear one can have it both ways.

It appears you have admitted that, in this case, he may advised people to be ready to fight violence with violence.
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Aug, 2004 11:30 pm
Quote:
It appears you have admitted that, in this case, he may advised people to be ready to fight violence with violence.


Admit it? Not exactly. Among the limited manuscripts we have of Jesus' teachings, there are none that deal with the people immediately present waging war; therefore, war is neither approved nor condemned in the New Testament. Within the culture and setting of his time, I would think righteous self defense would be an option as would using whatever means was necessary to protect or defend the innocent. This is supported in that he never condemned the Roman soldiers for soldiering or the Temple police for policing, and he seemed to agree that it was proper that his closest disciples be armed.

While he chose not to defend himself, the sense one gets of Jesus is that he did not condone or allow the mistreatment of women and children or anyone. I can't imagine him saying it would be wrong to protect the innocent. In fact, I can't imagine it being okay to stand by passively and allow the innocent to be harmed.

The Bible leads one in thought, but it does not provide concrete solutions for every problem. That's the long answer.

The short answer of course is that Jesus didn't advocate Christians attacking non Christians as all were non Christians prior to his death. Smile
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extra medium
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Aug, 2004 11:54 am
Foxfyre wrote:
Quote:
The short answer of course is that Jesus didn't advocate Christians attacking non Christians as all were non Christians prior to his death. Smile


Hmm...that is your opinion.
Some might say that the 12 disciples, for example, were Christians prior to his death.

When I bring up instances where it appears he did advocate using violence, you change the debate point to:
"he didn't advocate intiating violence"
and
"he didn't advocate attacking"

You are changing the debate question as the thread progresses. The thread question just says "violence," it doesn't specify "initiating" or "attacking."

When someone advises someone to go buy weapons to defend themselves, I see this as condoning violence to protect oneself. That fits into the original thread question of "ever advocate violence."

When I bring up this point, you change the question to "initiate violence," or "attack." You're not addressing the passage I bring up in relation to the original thread question. You are simply changing the thread question.

"Did Jesus ever advocate violence against non-Christians?"
"...he said unto them, sell your cloaks and buy swords."

How complicated is that?

Not that matters: Don't get me wrong: I don't particularly like it when one country invades & occupies another country. Regardless of religion, etc. I believe we on earth our wasting our time separating ourselves into different countries and different religions. I believe we should be a one world nation and focus on doing things like feeding the starving, instead of wasting money & lives on war. I realize that is a dream which may not become reality in this millenium. But we are not discussing that, right? We are discussing whether Jesus ever advocated violence.

The original post by nimh includes a passage "please find me one instance where Jesus advocated violence against people of other religions or ANYBODY and I'll never bring up the subject again..."

I would seriously like to know the answer to whether Jesus ever advocated violence. And in that scripture, it appeared that he did. I almost wish I hadn't found that passage. This troubles me a bit. Seems to contradict "Turn the other cheek."
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Aug, 2004 12:05 pm
The title of the thread is: did Christ ever advocate violence against non Christians. I have tried to make my comments within that scope. The implication, as I saw it, referenced other discussions regarding the militant aspects of Christianity and Islam. Only Nimh who posed the original question can speak to whether my interpretation of his intent was correct.

My comments have further attempted to address additional questions posed by member posting on this thread. If you wish to interpret my feeble attempts at explanation as 'dishonestly reframing the question', Extramedium, that is your privilege. I do not accept that as either what I've done or what I intended.

Now if you have some special insight into exactly where Nimh was going with his question, you are free to enlighten us. Otherwise, I think it a bit specious to criticise others for their interpretation of how the question should be addressed.
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extra medium
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Aug, 2004 02:18 pm
Foxfyre,
Okay, perhaps I misinterpreted your meaning.

I was simply trying to address the thread question:
"Did Jesus ever advocate violence against non-Christians."

and came across the passage
"...he said unto them, sell your cloaks and buy swords."

nimh or Sofia,
What do you think? Is telling someone to buy weapons (which are used for violent acts) implying they should be ready to use violence?
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au1929
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Aug, 2004 02:53 pm
The question I have is who knows what Jesus said or thought. Or for that matter what actually happened. There are no writings attributable to Jesus. Anything written was written many years after his death and all from supposed memory. Is it fact or fiction who knows.
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Aug, 2004 04:40 pm
Apologies for being snippy Extra. In my opinion, no matter how the passages related to swords are interpreted or in what context they are put, there is no way to determine a specific teaching in this case. In that respect, I agree with Au.
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