Heroes and Antiheroes in Fiction

Antihero: Tyler Durden from Fight Club.

Hero? I'll have to think about that.

I guess my favorite antihero is Raskolnikov, the protagonist from Dostoyevski's, "Crime and Punishment." The question is how one can have sympathy for a man who murders two women with an ax. But it happens!

King Arthur, Lancelot, and Percival are important heroes of the past.

Coluber, Raskolnikov is an excellent choice. I loved that book! You could really feel the torture of the damned in that one.

Owen Meany from "A Prayer for Owen Meany" as an unlikely hero - has to be one of my favorite interesting characters.

Oh, me me! Heroes are tough...antiheroes, Satan from Milton's Paradise Lost, Tarqin Winot from John Lanchester's The Debt to Pleasure, and Jean-Baptiste Grenouille from Patrick Suskind's Perfume. Heroes....hmm....they were always kinda boring. Maybe King Arthur.

I wonder why, as humans, we seem more interested in anti-heroes. Raskolinov is far more interesting than his victims, or his mother, or the people he meets. Iago is far more interesting than Desdemona in Othello. And, upon second read, I have known many people to whom I recommended Dangerous Liaisons to skip the letters written by virtuous Tourvel or innocent Cécile, only to devour the plots and corruption of the two anti-heroes, Merteuil and Valmont.

I love reading all the above, especially the latter. I love reading the antics of Pechorin in Lermontov's 'A hero of our time,' too; the form that that novel takes startles me.

O, and I enjoy reading Edmund from King Lear, (whose subplot, I must admit, is stronger than that of Hamlet.)

(Fight Club was a great read. Anything that leaves me feeling completely rattled, I commend.)

King Lear is my all time favourite Shakespeare play.

Before leaving the country, I saw a production of it, with Colin Redgrave as Lear. It was absolutely brilliant.

I've always liked Lear, but-- for the first time-- I think that I prefer it to Hamlet. It seems more mature, and developed; less idle thought, more plot and real character development. The few years that passed between Hamlet and Lear's being written seem more evident.

Though my favourite Shakespeare play has to be 'The Tempest,' as it feeds my imagination. Especially when I read it.

I don't know if you are a fan of Kirosawa films, but I would highly recommend his Japanese interpretations of MacBeth (Throne of Blood, 1957, black and white) and King Lear (Ran, 1985, in brilliant colour). Kirosawa was a huge fan of Shakespeare. This is a case where the nuances of the films merit watching, for cultural reasons, over reading the original texts.

I was cut off before I could write this, last night, but I know Kirosawa; I saw Throne of Blood, and it was awe-inspiring. (I found out about him a few years ago, after idly searching his name having heard it being dropped in that song, 'One week.) I never knew about 'Ran,' though, and will check it out. Is this your favourite of his?

Visually, Ran uses similar Kirosawa conventions from Throne of Blood in terms of how scenes are framed, but it's in full colour, and the battle scenes are awesome, as far more resources were availible to Kirosawa in the 80s. It is probably my favourite Kirosawa film, but I'm also biased towards the Lear play, as you know.

I've read that there are brothers instead of sisters in it; is it true? (Well, knowing Japan, it would make more sense.) What would you say is your second-favourite Shakespeare, after Lear?

Yes, it is brothers rather than sisters in Ran, which does make sense in Japanese culture. I gave a copy of the film to my brother, who speaks Japanese. He said that the form of Japanese used by Kirosawa, who also wrote the screenplay, was literally an archaic, medieval form of the language, in keeping with the time period Lear was written in. Fascinating stuff.

My second favourite Shakespeare play...hmm...maybe Titus Andronicus, probably an unpopular choice, but the gore and the somewhat over-the-top effort of a playwright's first tragedy, it holds a lot of intrigue for me. Kill me if you want, I happened to like Henry V, although I wouldn't put it anywhere on my top ten list. I loved The Tempest, and had middling feelings about MacBeth and Hamlet. I thought Romeo and Juliet was immature and ill-contrived. I also loved The Merchant of Venice and did not find the Shylock character anti-semetic at all, quite sympathetic really, for the time. More revisionist nonsense. Anyway, as for the rest, I'll have to go back over them.

What attention to detail! Japanese intrigues me lots. It would be in the top of my top 7 languages to be able to speak. When did your brother start?

Interesting about Titus. What intrigues you about it in particular? The characters? The insight into his young mind? It is interesting for a first shot, but I don't think that I could bear watching it on stage...

Some people have suggested that it is a mockery of the style of revenge tragedy popular around then, and in the Jacobean era; OTT plays like 'The Changeling' and 'The Duchess of Malfi.' I don't know what I think about that theory; how about you?

I agree with you about Romeo and Juliet. I always found it sophmoric, and unworthy of being bunched with the other tragedies. It is weird that a play written before Shakespeare got it all together should be his most popular! I suppose that that's our society (and previous ones) for you. It's all right to like Henry V, because you don't just like it and Macbeth :grr:. HV is one of those plays that I doubt that I will ever like. It doesn't appeal to my sensibility, I guess.

I loved 'The Merchant of Venice,' too; the Court scene is an amazing climax. I think that Shakespeare was wiser enough to not have such discrimination, unlike others around in his days... the 'If you..' speech really undermines people's saying that it is anti-semetic.

My top 7-- hmm. King Lear would be up there; The Tempest; Hamlet; Measure for Measure; Much Ado about nothing; and The Winter's Tale. I like most of his plays, though. Twelfth Night would be there, but I find the atmosphere of the play very, very constrictive.

I don't dislike many of the plays, so the least liked 7 would be:

Henry VI plays, Henry IV plays, Henry V, Henry VIII (a running theme? ), The Two Noble Kinsmen, Edward III (in which he had a hand) and The Merry Wives of Windsor (which I truly do hate.)

Incidentally, do you know: is Middle Japanese like Middle English, in that one can still understand it if one reads Japanese like a native?

Actually, my brother couldn't understand the Japanese much in Ran at all. He had to rely on the English subtitles. As for native speakers, I'm not sure. I suppose it would depend on whether or not they were educated in the style. In terms of Titus being a mockery of Jacobean drama, I think that's a stretch. It's more likely derivative of the genre, not a conscious effort at criticism. That's just my opinion though.

Anitheroes: This may seem odd, but I like the crew from R. A. Salvatore's "War of the Spider Queen" series, particularly the perpetually-prepared scout Valas & the somewhat brash, wisecracking wizard Phaeraun. They're the main characters & could be considered heroes, but none are particularly "good", & almost all are vicious, scheming backstabbers.

Also, Robert Salvatore's dark-elven rogue Jarlaxle.

Heroes: Salvatore's Drizzt DoUrden & his companions, Clive Cussler's Dirk Pitt, Al Giordino, Joe Zavala & Kurt Austin, Kay Hooper's enigmatic FBI profiler Noah Bishop, James Patterson's Detective Cross, Jeffery Deaver's Lincoln Rhyme & Amelia Sachs.

Villians (a bunch): Salvatore always does this well (and Malice DoUrden may be the best villina name ever) with Malice & the many others. Cussler also usually is pretty good with villians: the thoroughly amoral Foss Gly is probably the best.

Deaver also does villians very well, & they're usually pretty scary (as in, you're GLAD it's only a book).

Antihero: Corwin from Roger Zelazny's "Nine Princes in Amber" and the sequels.

Hero: There are so many, and they stretch back through all of the books I have read during my lifetine. I am rather fond of "Harry Potter's" Albus Dumbledore because he possesses a lot of power, but doesn't usually act like someone who does. He is pretty unassuming when he wouldn't have to be, but just steps in to help when it's needed. I kind of like that "quiet power" thing he has going.

I agree on Dumbledore...he also reminds me of Ed Greenwood's Elminster.