The Shakespeare Thread.

Out damned spot.

I love it. While I don't particularly favor her, Lady Macbeth that is, I do think she is a great picture of strength. She was so stone cold solid and unwavering in the thing she wanted done.

But....a tragedy is a tragedy and that line is so short but so telling of the guilt we carry when we face our actions.

I love it too, Onyx. Lady Macbeth is a fascinating character, to watch or to read. I don't think that the epithet of being a complete b___h deserves to be called 'being Lady Macbeth.' After all, she dies because of her conscience. She is an image of strength; but-- flawed strength. She is sly, but she's not aware at the start that this slyness will affect her; never mind drive her to insanity.She might be argued to have a 'blind love,' sacrificing lesser people for her husband's advancement. The portrayal of guilt in her is as convincing as it is in King Lear; even more so, maybe, because it surely shows how people try to overcome guilt before showing it-- even if her death is dramatic.

'Out damned spot' has to be one of the most effective short lines in Shakespeare, like, 'et tu, Brute?' in Julius Cæsar.; who could think of packing such an impact in three words?

Incidentally, Onyx, I love your tagline. Where is it from?

Brother Louie lol it's from a song where this white guy falls in love w/ a black woman and is met with 'civil unrest' at home lol

The thing about Shakespeare, drom, is that he knew people. Many of the characters in his plays are still hanging around on the globe (no pun intended).

I felt as though the man really believed that Julius Caesar was the best choice for Rome, and that leads me to believe that he favored monarchy.

As for MacBeth, he started out as a good man and a hero, only to become corrupt. Lady MacBeth started out as a bitch, and became noble, although obsessive/compulsive.

Although most of Shakespeare's history plays were taken from Hollenshed's Chronicles (I think)..it was his characterization that still impresses me.

Onyx, your quote reminds me of an old song Black Moonlight..Wow!

I'll check that song, Onyx. What Black Moonlight song is that, Letty? You should share it !

You're absolutely right, my friend, with all you have said. He was one of the first to realize Character. Even his less realistic characters, like Miranda or Desdemona, symbols of one thing or another, are deeper in character than most standard characters, today. And, unlike his contemporaries, he was broad enough to know that character is not essentially fate, although it helps, as it is the stimulus for action-- how eerily do 'fate' and the French word 'faites' (which, combined with vous, means 'you do', or, on its own 'do') sound exactly the same?

I wonder what exactly it is in Shakespeare that empowers people, like on Robben Island. They had one book-- Shakespeare's collected works-- and lived on it.

Incidentally, Letty; is it his histories that impress you the most?

Here is a soliloquoy that perfectly shows his grasp of character, from Measure for Measure, a play of his that I hold in great regard. Angelo is stung immediately by the nun, Isabella's, beauty. He is a pure man, deemed, but is actually a hypocrite: he setendces Isabella's brother to death for fornication, unless Isabella do this same act with him. You can see two sides battle in his breath:

Angelo: What's this, what's this? Is this her fault or mine?
The tempter or the tempted, who sins most?
Ha!
Not she: nor doth she tempt: but it is I
That, lying by the violet in the sun,
Do as the carrion does, not as the flower,
Corrupt with virtuous season. Can it be
That modesty may more betray our sense
Than woman's lightness? Having waste ground enough,
Shall we desire to raze the sanctuary
And pitch our evils there? O, fie, fie, fie!
What dost thou, or what art thou, Angelo?
Dost thou desire her foully for those things
That make her good? O, let her brother live!
Thieves for their robbery have authority
When judges steal themselves. What, do I love her,
That I desire to hear her speak again,
And feast upon her eyes? What is't I dream on?
O cunning enemy, that, to catch a saint,
With saints dost bait thy hook! Most dangerous
Is that temptation that doth goad us on
To sin in loving virtue: never could the strumpet,
With all her double vigour, art and nature,
Once stir my temper; but this virtuous maid
Subdues me quite. Even till now,
When men were fond, I smiled and wonder'd how.

Now, everyone, it's a bright night in Mâcon and I'm going to sit by the river until the new day comes. See you soon, everyone.

Later then, drom, enjoy.

Lyrics to Black Moonlight

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Lost in the shuffle, I`ve drifted an` strayed
Bruised by the city, bewildered, betrayed
With a heart heavy laden with faltering strides
I have come to the bridge, to the line that divides!

What am I doing up here in a daze
As I gaze at the cold river bed?
Why do I ask myself, "Shall I go back
when I seem to be going ahead?"

To black moonlight!
Where everything reflects your colour
Darkness that is endless.
nights that leave me friendless . . . blue!

Black moonlight!
You make the lights of Harlem duller
Just like me you`re faded, jaded and degraded . . . too!
Why must you send . . .
ebony moonbeams, depressing, distressing . . .
like shadows of love that are gone?

Where will it end?
Will it spread on to the starlight, the sunlight
and darken each promise of dawn?

Black moonlight!
I`ve lost all power to resist you
Madly, I await you, even though I hate you
Black, black moonlight!

I don't like the comedies, but that's because I never taught them, I guess.

I particularly enjoyed Richard III, because I have a book here called "To Prove a Villain," that admirably makes a case FOR Richard.

Julius Caesar, Act II, Scene 1:



I played Portia in a fifth grade(!) production of Julius Caesar. The kiddie version didn't have the word harlot, I said something more like "If it be no more, Portia is not Brutus's wife." Loved that scene, loved that character.

Ah, Jes. I love that. Do you think that Brutus should have shared his plan with Portia? Can't believe that your school put on Shakespeare plays, be they bowdlerized or not, at the fifth grade level.

A confession: I never thought that Brutus was "the noblest Roman of them all..." most naive, perhaps.

Love your signature, too. O Brother Where Art Thou...

Thanks, Letty. The night was ruined, somewhat. I loved the song; who sang it?

Jes: wow; Shakespeare in Fifth grade; when is fifth grade, by the way? The equivalent of our Year Six (10-11 year olds?) It's impressive that you all learnt the play at such a young age. Did you have to study Portia before you portrayed her? -- Would she be your favourite rôle in Shakespeare? Brutus' not telling the plan to her strangely reminds one of Iago, who came later.

As for Julius Cæsar; well, the way that he is presented on the face of it is as someone conceited (his third-person language, his assuming, and getting more than his fair share of Rome's control) but also insecure (about various things; most specifically, being seen weak by the people, including the whole 'Ides' thing.) Yet, I think that Shakespeare shows him as ablest. 'He were no lion, were not Romans hinds.' Brutus-- well, we have the paradox of whether there can be such a thing as a 'honourable murderer' or 'turncoat.' We are left with the overwhelming feeling that a stable autocracy is better than random murders, and that one should not get rid of the powers that be so rashly. That Brutus disturbed the balance and was completely unfaithful, despite his reasons for being so, does not show someone 'really noble,' or really looking out for the people. I liked Cæsar more than quite a few flawed heroes (far more than Macbeth himself or Othello.) Who can help but feel for the speech:

The fault, dear Brutus, is not in our stars,
But in ourselves that we are underlings.

or:

Cowards die many times before their deaths
The valiant never taste of death but once.
Of all the wonders that I have heard,
It seems to me most strange that men should fear;
Seeing that death, a necessary end,
Will come when it will come.

Do you know, Letty, that Richard the Third is the only past English royal to have his own fan club? -- The Richard the Third society. I think that Shakespeare was under too much pressure, being then the Tudors in power. There seems to be a correlation between Richard III and Julius Cæsar; a repressed one.

What play did you teach the most often, Letty? I think that the comedies need to be seen, before being studied, 'though I find 'A midsummer night's dream' more delightful as being read. I wonder why the Problem plays, and the Romances are more neglected in schools than the Tragedies?

Morning, drom.

The song, "Black Moonlight" came from my sister (she didn't sing it) but Perry Como sang the version that I submitted. I remember as a child my sister's preoccupation with songs of a different hue. Both "Gloomy Sunday" and "Black Moonlight" were products of the great depression in America, but the roots go back much further than that.

I taught Romeo and Juliet in the 9th grade; Julius Caesar in the 10th and MacBeth in the 12th. In between, I showed the students movies of others that had been adapted from Shakespeare.

Sorry that your evening was ruined. Why is that?

I was 9 when I played Portia (golly), but the class was mostly 10 and 11 yr olds. I was just young.

I didn't study her at all beforehand, if I remember correctly. I do remember thinking, though, that it was good that Brutus didn't tell her the plan (he's being protective, after all), but at the same time she absolutely took it personally. If you don't tell your spouse when you're in trouble, then who can you trust? My perspective now is that Portia takes the whole thing awfully personally (which I understand), but it must have eaten Brutus alive. He wants to tell her on some level, because he wants to confide in his life partner and also assure her that she's as close to him as ever (wife, not harlot). But at the same time, he's sworn an oath to keep his mouth shut, plus he's protective of her since, of course, she could have been put to death as a co-conspirator if she knew of the plot and failed to warn Caesar or an official.

Brutus, I suspect, should have been more tortured about this, but the idea doesn't seem to be explored much in the play. It's like (man, I'm arrogant if I'm talking about rewriting Shakespeare!), I dunno, there should be more of a backstory there.

Is that an older sister, or a younger one? Did she sing professionally too, or was it casually, at home? I have downloaded it; I like it very much. It's a shame that your songs are not on the Internet; I bet that they are as beautiful as your messages here.

Ah, Romeo and Juliet; I remember that that was the first Shakespeare play that I read in school, and although it is not one of my favourites, there is much more to it than star cross'd lovers. I loved Mercutio; in school, I played his rôle as 'Mercutia,' probably because no one else wanted to memorize the lines. Did you choose the plays, or are they dictated, like they are in England? Did you ever act, Letty?

I seem to prefer the plays that I did not do in school; we had to do Romeo and Juliet, Macbeth and Othello, but the former two were ruined, slightly, by the most uninterested teacher. No one whom I have known made 'Ah! she doth teach the torches to burn bright' seem like the text at the back of a cereal packet.

Here are a few lines from the Winter's tale.

When you speak, sweet,
I'ld have you do it ever; when you sing,
I'ld have you buy and sell so; so give alms;
Pray so; and for the ord'ring you affairs,
To sing them too. When you do dance, I wish you
A wave o' th' sea, that you might ever do
Nothing but that; move so, still so,
And own no other function. Each your doing
(So singular in each particular)
Crowns what you are doing in the present deeds,
That all your acts are queens.

Ah, drom. Everything is a child of Shakespeare.

To prove it, here is a song that replicates your soliloquy:

Every time we say goodnight I cry a little,
Every time we say goodnight, I want to die a little.

Why the gods above me, who should be in the know,
Think so little of me, they allow you to go.

When we speak there's such an air of spring about it.
I can hear a lark somewhere begin to sing about it.

There's no love song finer, but how strange the change
From major to minor.

Every time we say goodnight.

Wow. Love it and no apologizes for being caught up in the moment.

No, drom t'was my older sister, the greatest influence in my life, and the one with whom I fought the most.

I love that song too, Letty; what emotion it holds. Everything is better for having Shakespeare's legacy-- but, I wonder whether he will still be taught in two-hundred years' time. I really do hope that what Orwell wrote does not come true.

Had she influenced you throughout your life? Sometimes one fights with those whom one loves the most.

Come unto these yellow sands,
And then take hands.
Curtsied when you have and kissed,
The wild waves whist,
Foot it featly here and there;
And, sweet sprites, the burden bear.

I was reading through the Guardian's archives earlier to-day, for one thing or another, and I came across a recent article about the proposed scrapping of Shakespeare from the GCSE course. GCSE English is a series of examinations that, along with Math and Science, everyone has to take before leaving school at 16, or going onto 6th form.

Nowadays, as I was horrified to hear, they use Shakespeare to teach punctuation (!!!) instead of teaching his plots-- teaching his plots doesn't come until A-level, for those few bothered enough to take Literature. And, basically, they are saying that they can teach punctuation using something more modern, and forget about W.S.

I find that this would be a grave, grave loss.

Punctuation, drom? Good grief. The dumbing down of the world, but I never thought that it would start with England. Poor old Willie.

I propose using William Blake to teach punctuation. That would really confuse the kidlets.

Cav, you tiger. See you're still burning bright in the forest of the night.