8
   

Is free speech an illusion?

 
 
Thomas
 
  3  
Reply Tue 7 Jul, 2015 08:31 pm
@Angelgz2,
Angelgz2 wrote:
Is free speech an illusion?

No.

Angelgz2 wrote:
You think you are free to express your opinions but you are not free at all. If you say Israel must be stopped, you are an anti-Semitic or Neo Nazi. If you support the Palestinians, you are a terrorist. If you citing factual statistics that a certain race is more prone to crimes, you are a racist. The list goes on...

Free speech works ways. You are free to say all these things. Others are free to call you names for it. Free speech, you see, is for everyone, not just for you.

Angelgz2 wrote:
The society itself is a machine that dictates what you can say and what you cannot. Non-conforming to His standards results in the non-conforming individual being alienated or even outcasted.

I don't see how that follows. Freedom of speech is not freedom from criticism or disapproval.
0 Replies
 
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Jul, 2015 10:07 am
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:

Anti-catholics are not any better than anti-semites...

The inference being that I am anti-Catholic? If so, you are not parsing my position. Anti-Semites devalue the lives of Jews. Anti-Catholics usually just want to avoid the world of Catholicism, a la public schools rather than have a state run parochial school system, like some South American countries. There is only one "Jewish" country, where religious holidays are state holidays; however, how many countries have an official Christian religion, with the Christian holidays being national holidays - many.

0 Replies
 
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Jul, 2015 04:17 pm
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:

Anti-catholics are not any better than anti-semites...


And, continuing my retort to your accusation above, anti-Semites have a history of pogroms, Inquisitions, the Holocaust, and disenfranchising Jews from universities, medieval guilds, land ownership, as just a few of the limitations that anti-Semites have effected. Jews have a history of the polio vaccine, the Manhattan project, and a slew of teachers/professors in the U.S. that have tried hard to teach many an ungrateful Catholic. If I am anti-Catholic, it might also be based on a Catholic Church that took a Jewish rabbi, and made a religion from his Jewish followers. It's called "taking over," something the anti-Semite accuses Jews of doing. Read the New Testament. It says the "multidtudes rejoiced when He entered Jerusalem." All Catholics say, that I have heard, is the Jews killed Christ. That might come from not really reading the bible like Protestants?

But, Jews don't "act out" any hostility, as Catholics have done over history in pogroms, Inquisitions, the Holocaust, and legal disenfranchisement. It has not been an even playing field since Jews know how to be held in contempt, but not "act out." Catholics have occasionally found that hard to do.
Olivier5
 
  2  
Reply Wed 15 Jul, 2015 05:25 am
@Foofie,
Quote:
But, Jews don't "act out" any hostility, as Catholics have done over history in pogroms, Inquisitions, the Holocaust, and legal disenfranchisement.

Pogroms were more a Christian Orthodox thing. The Inquisition did not target the Jews but Christian 'heretics'; and the Holocaust was done by a majoritarily Protestant country. The Catholic Church was far less antisemitic than Luther. The Popes gave the sepharad Jews safe haven after the reconquista, etc. your hatred is misinformed and mistargeted.

But more importantly, you are saying that prejudice is fine as long as it's not acted on. That is in fact impossible. Prejudice are ALWAYS acted upon. The only reason you -- for instance -- don't kill or otherwise victimise Catholics is that you can't.
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Jul, 2015 09:24 am
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:

Quote:
But, Jews don't "act out" any hostility, as Catholics have done over history in pogroms, Inquisitions, the Holocaust, and legal disenfranchisement.

Pogroms were more a Christian Orthodox thing. The Inquisition did not target the Jews but Christian 'heretics'; and the Holocaust was done by a majoritarily Protestant country. The Catholic Church was far less antisemitic than Luther. The Popes gave the sepharad Jews safe haven after the reconquista, etc. your hatred is misinformed and mistargeted.

But more importantly, you are saying that prejudice is fine as long as it's not acted on. That is in fact impossible. Prejudice are ALWAYS acted upon. The only reason you -- for instance -- don't kill or otherwise victimise Catholics is that you can't.


First, Spanish Jews arrived in Spain 300 BC. They were kicked out with the advent of the Inquisition in 1492, because they were not authentic/true Spaniards. They were the truest of Spaniards, having been there since 300 BC. They were not Catholics, and the Spanish Church needed money, having just spent their last penny on getting the Moors out of Grenada, to complete La Reconquista. What better way than to confiscate Jewish wealth.

And, the Holocaust was not just effected by Lutheran Germans. Don't try to sell me on that canard. And, while Luther was anti-Semitic, the Catholic church being older was the original author of Christian anti-Semitism.

No. Prejudice is not always acted on. That is what makes for cosmopolitan living and many diverse groups can live together in harmony, even though they are alienated from each other.

And, you should stop accusing me of hating Catholics. I just avoid them. The same way Protestant Americans might cloister themselves in small town America where the percent of Catholics is miniscule. You might say I am contemptuous of Catholics, but not hate. And, it is total fabrication that I have any desire to victimize Catholics. I just want to avoid them, especially the undereducated class, and that can be hard to do in urban America. Too many of them are undereducated. Those that are well educated are basically clannish amongst themselves, reflecting their parochial education that might have included a desire to interact with only Catholics on a social level.

And, you used the word "kill." That is a nasty canard based on nothing. In my opinion, that is what annoys some Gentiles - Jews can be held in contempt, but don't act out. You see, Jews are different, since they had a conscience somewhat earlier than other demographics acquired one, in my opinion. It might be hardwired better into their DNA?

Please don't reply, since your position is just pretending that the world-wide, hierarchal Catholic church is just like the non-hierarchal Jewish faith. Apples and oranges. And Jews are not given a Cathechism like Catholics must memorize. More apples and oranges. No one wishes you harm. Some people just think of the Catholic church is a multi-national organization where only men meet in secret, behind closed doors. That is far from Judaism.

This back and forth posting is based on your claim that the anti-Catholic is no better than the anti-Semite, or something like that. Well, prior to 1948, in the modern era, Jews had no homeland, so they had "no blood on their hands." However, in many countries, anti-Semites, for over a millenia, had blood on their hands from their hatred of Jews (as "Christ Killers," as too successful, as a convenient scapegoat, for starters). You need to accept that the Catholic church wrote the script of hating Jews. Low class Gentiles, often Catholics, were only too happy to act on that script.

Let's wave good-bye.
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Jul, 2015 08:45 pm
@Foofie,
Quote:
You see, Jews are different, since they had a conscience somewhat earlier than other demographics acquired one, in my opinion. It might be hardwired better into their DNA?


Do you really think that Jewish people are superior to any other race of people?

I don't see how Jewish supremacists are any better than the supremacists of any other race.
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  2  
Reply Thu 16 Jul, 2015 05:16 am
@Foofie,
Quote:
They were kicked out with the advent of the Inquisition in 1492, because they were not authentic/true Spaniards. They were the truest of Spaniards, having been there since 300 BC. They were not Catholics, and the Spanish Church needed money, having just spent their last penny on getting the Moors out of Grenada, to complete La Reconquista. What better way than to confiscate Jewish wealth.

Total hogwash. The inquisition was not concerned about the Jews but about the CHRISTIANS.

It was the temporal powers, ie the catholic KINGS Fernando and Isabella, who chase Jews out of Spain. Many Sephardim were granted refuge by no other than the pope. They initially settled in the papal states of Italy and France, before moving on to the Ottoman empire a few decades later. Those were the early days of printing, and some of those sephardim went into that. That's were the Soncino talmud comes from: Jews printing the talmud from WITHIN THE PAPAL STATES, and with the agreement of the pope, in a town called Soncino.

You have no idea what you are talking about, and bring disrepute to "Jewish DNA". I guess some Jews are really goykopf.
Foofie
 
  0  
Reply Thu 16 Jul, 2015 12:45 pm
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:

Quote:
They were kicked out with the advent of the Inquisition in 1492, because they were not authentic/true Spaniards. They were the truest of Spaniards, having been there since 300 BC. They were not Catholics, and the Spanish Church needed money, having just spent their last penny on getting the Moors out of Grenada, to complete La Reconquista. What better way than to confiscate Jewish wealth.

Total hogwash. The inquisition was not concerned about the Jews but about the CHRISTIANS.

It was the temporal powers, ie the catholic KINGS Fernando and Isabella, who chase Jews out of Spain. Many Sephardim were granted refuge by no other than the pope. They initially settled in the papal states of Italy and France, before moving on to the Ottoman empire a few decades later. Those were the early days of printing, and some of those sephardim went into that. That's were the Soncino talmud comes from: Jews printing the talmud from WITHIN THE PAPAL STATES, and with the agreement of the pope, in a town called Soncino.

You have no idea what you are talking about, and bring disrepute to "Jewish DNA". I guess some Jews are really goykopf.


The Inquisition stated all non-Catholics must leave Spanish soil. That included Jews that had been in Spain 1,800 years. Some Jews converted and were called Conversos by Catholics and Maranos (Pigs) by the Jews that left Spain. However, some of these Conversos were supposedly secretly keeping Jewish traditions. The Inquisition had to root them out. So, with the Anabaptists and others, the Jews did suffer in Spain, under the Inquisition. The Jews that were forced to leave, by the edict of the Spanish Church, went primarily to Portugal, Italy, and Holland. Within a few generations many of the Jews that went to Italy married into Italian families, and there Judaism was assimilated into Catholicism.

Your emphasis on the Jews being able to print their religious books in Italy does not have anything to do with the fact that Catholicism promulgates a closed society, whereby non-Catholics are outsiders, in my opinion.

Also, the correct Yiddish term is "goyishakup". It does not mean Gentiles are stupid; just that being the majority, they view things from the perspective of a top dog. Meaning they don't always have the need to analyze a situation from more than their perspective.

And, my referencing my "Jewish DNA" is just my being sarcastic, since what made those Jews that schlepped behind Moses intelligent was likely the Gentile DNA (German/Russian?) they picked up during the last few millenium. You see, while the Gentile culture married for beauty and brawn, the Jewish culture married for brains, period. But, I do think Jews today also marry for beauty (brawn is not really essential anymore), so in the future there might be Jews that are both beautiful and brainy. From my mouth to God's ears (if there is a God).

Now, if you are trying to dissuade me that Catholicism was not the author of European anti-Semitism, or that Catholics today often reflect a fairly clannish group of people, please save your energy. I have lived longer than you, and you seem to have poor information on that topic. I do think Catholics are trying very hard to cover their clannishness with friendly talk, and smiles; however, I believe it is just a front for basically only feeling comfortable amongst fellow Catholics. My litmus test is that they usually have no qualms to talk behind the back of a Jew, but try not to behave that way to fellow Catholics.
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Jul, 2015 05:22 am
@Foofie,
Keep hating, Foof. Keep living in that little cesspool of prejudice of yours, ignoring facts, afraid of the whole world, and avoiding people that are different from you. And do keep accusing them of forming a closed society, while you shun them like crazy... Such self-ghettoization suits the low-brow and the scared.
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Jul, 2015 09:44 am
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:

Keep hating, Foof. Keep living in that little cesspool of prejudice of yours, ignoring facts, afraid of the whole world, and avoiding people that are different from you. And do keep accusing them of forming a closed society, while you shun them like crazy... Such self-ghettoization suits the low-brow and the scared.


Stop accusing of hating. It is called discomfort that I avoid certain groups/demographics. And, the obvious reason, as an American, with my right to pursue happiness, is that many people of certain demographics do not meet my personal standards for good social intercourse. I also don't care for false friends that have two levels of friendship - one for their own demographic, and one for outsiders. Wake up and realize that the U.S. is highly diverse, and the way to live in peace is to ignore many that are of a different mindset, not to mention totally brainwashed in the correctness of their thinking.

I do avoid people that are different than me, and that is my right as an American. Since you are not an American, your promulgating a universal acceptance of all humanity is just reflective of your demographic, I would guess. At this point your ire is just harrassment, since I am not trying to proselytize to you, but you are irate over my not seeing the world as you see it. Go away. You do not meet my standards to post to. Call it my xenophobia if you like, but just go away.
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Jul, 2015 02:56 pm
@Foofie,
Quote:
You do not meet my standards to post to.

Then why don't you stop posting to me, Foof? Get lost already.
0 Replies
 
coldjoint
 
  -3  
Reply Fri 17 Jul, 2015 03:07 pm
@Foofie,
Quote:
but you are irate over my not seeing the world as you see it.


A lot of that going around.http://www.alien-earth.com/images/smileys/kickass.gif
Foofie
 
  0  
Reply Fri 17 Jul, 2015 07:17 pm
@coldjoint,
coldjoint wrote:

Quote:
but you are irate over my not seeing the world as you see it.


A lot of that going around.http://www.alien-earth.com/images/smileys/kickass.gif


I think it is called "self-rightous indignation"? The antidote is "humility," but that is in scarce supply these days - everywhere, in my opinion.
coldjoint
 
  -2  
Reply Sat 18 Jul, 2015 10:59 pm
@Foofie,
Quote:
The antidote is "humility," but that is in scarce supply these days - everywhere, in my opinion.


Gratitude is sadly lacking also. I guess that comes with humility.
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Jul, 2015 07:31 am
@coldjoint,
Look! A pair of very humble and grateful folks on A2K... Now this is a rare sighting if there ever was one.

Maybe if we hide and watch, we gonna see them mating...
wmwcjr
 
  -1  
Reply Sun 19 Jul, 2015 02:14 pm
@Olivier5,
Resorting to personal insults is the best way to win an argument. http://www.democraticunderground.com/emoticons/sarcasm.gif Rolling Eyes
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Jul, 2015 02:15 pm
@wmwcjr,
You are confusing sarcasm with insult.
Foofie
 
  0  
Reply Sun 19 Jul, 2015 02:16 pm
@coldjoint,
coldjoint wrote:

Quote:
The antidote is "humility," but that is in scarce supply these days - everywhere, in my opinion.


Gratitude is sadly lacking also. I guess that comes with humility.


I believe gratitude tends to be lacking, since we have a society of entitlement, so why be grateful for what one is entitled to? And, humility reflects knowing one's place in society. Everyone is equal according to the progressive gospel, so there is no "place" in society, one should know. Society has devolved into a Peter Pan scenario for many segments. Maturity is a relic of a past time.

0 Replies
 
timur
 
  2  
Reply Sun 19 Jul, 2015 02:30 pm
Foofie wrote:
Maturity is a relic of a past time.


You look quite mature..
coldjoint
 
  -2  
Reply Sun 19 Jul, 2015 02:49 pm
@Olivier5,
Quote:
You are confusing sarcasm with insult.


It is very hard to insult a humble man. Take that as you wish, you will anyway
 

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