Independence Day - Why Do You Celebrate or Not??

Whoaa there big fella.
1. Everyone in the world doesn't hate us. Don't believe the hype.
2. We happen to reside in the country where the GDP per capita is the highest of all nations. Few countries can boast more freedoms and none are strong enough to take ours away. This is the only place on earth where you have a guaranteed right to the pursuit of happiness.

Pick another day to hate the United States.

Greatest country in the world? Depending on the criteria used, that is a simple matter of fact.

Ohhhhsay can you see....

We're a bunch of smug, arrogant, condescending flag-waving fools who are blind to what's happening around us.
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Speak for yourself. "We're" nothing of the sort.

Bill, I'm with ya all the way on this. I'm also willing to accept the fact that my friends in England love their country probably as much as I love mine.

And they probably think their country is the best in the world (if not, they're free to come here any time).

Finally, if America sucks as much as every other country, then why are so many people trying to get here, and risking their lives to do so (terrorists are excluded from this question)?

For a few of you a2k'rs that remember my sig line for the first year that I particiapated on this forum, was "fiat lux." I sorta borrowed that line from the German Philosopher Goethe who was rumoured to have said, on his death bed, "more light, more light." Now this has been interpreted in several ways one of which is that what the world needed was more light in the sense of more understanding and less violence, I went with that understanding along with the thought that relatively new nation states, especially since the beginning of the 20th century have sought to establish their world position and influence by means of authority and power in order to change the world to what they see/saw as a better place, be it the USSR, USA, Red China, N Korea, Pakistan, and even including some of the smaller african nations. Of course much of this phenonoma was the direct result of simple acquistion of "POWER" which has been manifested since time immorial, but, as I see it, for the past century there has been the added dimension of changing the world via ideology. Personally, I tend to favor the thoughts of persons such as Lao Tzu to offered the opinion that changing the world was/is a matter of changing yourself. Getting back to "fiat lux" my greatest fear is that the US, or others, will provide a new intreptation more along the line of the "more light that comes from nuclear (badder, more powerful, weapons." In his drive to make Germany into a Fascist Aryan empire, Adolf Hitler took control of all aspects of religion, art, literature, and cultural life. I see the potential for the US as well as other historically recent nation states, out of both arrogance and need for recognition of authority, moving in thepossible direction of "nuclear light" rather "light of understanding. We, it seems to me, here in the US have the potential to set a new direction of changing the world for the better by changing ourselves, improving the lot of mankind, nature and quality of life. In perhaps naive terms, "built it and they will follow" or destroy it so that noone will get the better of us and on our headstone can be written "we only did it to change the world for the better"

Me and the Mrs usually stay close to home on long weekends, because we don't care to fight the traffic. However, we are going to San Francisco tomorrow to listen to some classical music in the park with friends - and they're driving.

I am with Bill. (I happen to be one of the most patriotic lefties you will ever find).

I often criticize my country, and that is because I care about it. But I also take the time, especially around this time, to think about what makes the US great.

The US has, without question, has been at the forefront of democracy. She has accomplished great things and has make real contributions to the world. A few of the things I am most proud of...

1) America's leadership in and unique commitment to free speech and a free press. There have been a few hiccups, but overall the US has been an example. Every voice in America can be heard without fear of consequence. Historically, and even now, this is astonishing.

This has saved the US more than once -- including the Pentagon Papers. Think about what would happen in Iraq (with Abu Graib etc) if we didn't have a free press.

2) America's mix of immigrants. The US remains one of the most diverse and accepting countries of the world. Again there are hiccups, but we are a changing vibrant mix of nationalities.

The US has given a lot to immigrants, and we have returned the favor.

3) A history of public protest. From the Slavery, to Woman's sufferage, to Civil Rights, to Vietnam, to Iraq, there have been great popular movements to address ills in our nation.

This is part of our culture and who we are. We have great battles, and we have always come out stronger and more progressive as a nation.

4) Innovation. From the auto to the computer to aviation, the US has been at the forefront of technological innovation.


I am willing to say that, in my not so humble opinion, the US is a great nation -- even the greatest in the world.

Of course I will not hold it against the Germans, Australians and Canadians here who would say the same about their countries.

There is a lot to love about the United States. I will be waving my flag and listening to Ray Charles singing America the Beautiful.

July 4th is very important to Americans -- regardless of their ancestry or how long they have been here. Celebrating July 4th is celebrating everything good about our nation, our history and us as Americans.

It celebrates the signing of the Declaration of Independence. The ideals expressed in this document are far more important than the defeat of the British.



These most sacred words express the very soul of the United States. What was started in 1776 was not in vain.

Some 100 years later, Lincoln used these words to end slavery in the United States.

About 190 years later Martin Luther King used the same words to lead the Civil rights movement. King was an American patriot. He fully claimed the ideals of America as his own.

When you celebrate July 4th you celebrate the legacy of all the Americans who fought for liberty. Celebrate Dr. King and Cesar Chavez and Susan B. Anthony and Thoreau and the many others who fought and marched and protested and went to jail and died.

What we celebrate is the continual struggle for liberty-- both where we have come from and where we are going.

This is the legacy of every American.

True. And false. Depends. Most of the world, probably even all world strongly dislikes USA. If "us" means Americans then it's different story. Anybody with minimal brain capacity will never say that he hates or dislikes Americans (or Peruvians, New Zealanders or Ghambians). And fact that world dislikes USA relates only to USA politics - that has nothing to do with people, places, customs, etc...of course, we are talking about normal world, not about terrorists.



Well, this is not actually true but doesn't matter, cause it's very close to truth (highest is in Luxembourg, USA is second). But, that's only part of the story. Scandinavian countries, especially Sweden, are definitely wealthier if you take that from slightly different perspective. Number of billionairs in USA is impressive, but that doesn't help a lot all those homeless people. Put a billionaires aside, and average Swede lives better then average American. Not that it really matters, I'm just answering on your claim, I doubt that American, Swede or Croatian should be proud of his or her country because of wealth. There are other reasons.



That was true once. Not anymore. Gus has a good point in that part. Americans completely lost track of what's happening in the world. Of course, I am not living in USA so I simply can't claim that you don't have enough freedom, but from what I read and hear (mainly from american sources) level of censorship in USA is higher then in any European country (except possibly Albania and Bosnia) and Americans can (and often do) end up at court for things that are impossible in Europe (with exception of UK that also seems to have "american" tendency of suing for everything one can imagine). Oh, btw, with "censorship" I don't think about media, but rather about things like all country going crazy and screaming in terror because kids saw a tit, or movie ratings (in most of Europe every kid was allowed to see a "Troy" without special permissions or parental guidance, etc...I am not questioning American right to act differently, I just don't see that as beautiful example of freedom. As well as some other issues such as: marijuana that is legalized in some and de-criminalized in most european countries, then gay marriages where, I think, Europe generally is much more liberal, I believe abortion rights in Europe are also bit more liberal, etc...

I AM NOT saying that USA is not free country. Far from that. Just that it's far from truth that TODAY (once again: maybe just 20-30 years ago it was different) USA is some kind of role model in freedom. Far from that as well. Once again, that might be my wrong impression (although it comes from American sources, both media and personal contacts), but I think that average American today has less freedom then average American had 20 years ago, while in Europe it's completely opposite (for a start, in most of Europe you can tell a joke in every single place, no matter on what position you are, and joke can be about absolutely everything and you don't have to be afraid that someone will sue you - they might consider you idiot or bigot maybe)

Freedom of press and political freedom in USA are on extremely high level, but that's same in almost all european countries.

I don't think that you shouldn't be proud of your country, and I can also mention that I don't think there are many countries in the world that would behave differently in USA's position. I just personally think that pride can be shown without simply untrue claims such as "we have more freedom then anyone else", or similar claims like "everybody wants to come to USA", "all world is jealous because we are so rich, happy and free", etc...

Jingoism is ugly, but apparently self-satisfying.

It's so funny to see each nation and their idiotic use of "best". Tribalism rationalized here is funny.

Pathetic allegiances to lines in the sand over humanity.

And don't give me any of that "hate america some other day" bullshit. Hating based on those lines in the sand is just as stupid and my irritation with simplistic nationalism started with Canada day. That retort is just more simplistic stupidity.

I think it's all stupid not just ours.

dys and craven say it real good.

MyOwnUsername,

Thanks for that. One reason I hate the mindless stupidity of some variants of "patriotism" exhibited here is that it is plain bullshit.

On the way to the self-serving "we are the best" bullshit people start to make dumb claims. Americans do so frequently about "freedoms" without much knowledge or taste of the differences.

I've lived in freer places. This is another lie perpetuated by blind irrational patriotism.

Exactly the kind of nonsense (with a different country in mind, of course, as there is in all these silly days) that makes me not "celebrate" Australia Day (which Indigenous people here call "Invasion Day"anyway - I guess the native Americans and Canadians do not have such a defined incvasion day?).

I DO like the public holiday, though.

Interesting (and provocative) thought.

If the USA had NOT fought to free itself from Britain (of course, the UK would have given it to you eventually, without all those tiresome fire crackers, teehee, if history followed the same general course) would slavery have ended earlier?

Did the UK not outlaw slavery in its territories in 1832?

(I know Set will tell me if I am wrong!)

And - if you had been a dominion of South Australia, American women would have got the vote in 1894.

deb, The Americans were much more literatethan the early Australian colony. They read their Locke and found value in the meaning of 'property". IMHO a revolution was inevitable and its main tool of foment was literacy.

Lol! If it hadn't been for you and yer damn firecrackers, we'd probably have been Dutch, or French, and, while not initially mainly convicts, not likely to be reading Locke.

Four score
I said four score and seven years ago
Our forefathers,
Honey, I mean all our forefathers
Brought forth upon this here continent a new nation
Concieved,
Conceived like we all was
In liberty, and dedicated to the one I love
I mean dedicated to the proposition
That all men, honey, I tell you all men
Are created equal

Om mane padme om
On mane padme om
Folding the flag means taking care of the nation.
Folding the flag is putting it to bed for the night.
I fell through a hole in the flag
I'm falling through a hole in the flag
Help!

Don't put it down
Best one around
Crazy for the red blue and white
Crazy for the red blue and white

You look at me
What do you see
Crazy for the white red and blue
Crazy for the white red and blue

Cause I look different
You think I'm subversive
Crazy for the blue white and red
Crazy for the blue white and red

My heart beats true
For the red white and blue
Crazy for the blue white and red
Crazy for the blue white and red
And yellow fringe
Crazy for the blue white red and yellow

(The preceeding two songs are brought to you courtesy of the musical Hair, 1968.)

Our Dear Wabbit:

There was much public outcry at "celebrating" the 500th anniversary of the arrival of Columus in 1992. As for the end of slavery, the abolition of slavery in the British Empire was finally achieved when Parliament agreed to reimburse the planters of the sugar islands according to a schedule drawn up by the Lords of Trade. It is doubtful if they could have afforded in 1832 to do for more than a million slaves what they actually did for a few tens of thousands.

As for women's suffrage, from 1776 to 1807, New Jersey granted the vote to women who owned property. In 1839, the vote was granted to women in the Wyoming Territory. In 1893, the vote was granted to women in Colorado. In 1896, the vote was given women in Idaho and Utah (Utah ? ! ? ! ?). The vote was granted to women in South Australia in 1894, and in Western Australia in 1899. Women were given the franchise in Australian federal elections in 1902, which was 18 years before national suffrage for women in the United States, which required a constitutional amendment. (Courtesy of the International Museum of Women. I knew Wyoming was right out in front there, but not that it was done so early. The New Jersey information was an eye-opener for me.)

By the way, the establishment of a penal colony in Australia in 1788 (the expedition left England in 1787) was not even mooted until the American colonies were lost, and no more convicts could be sent to Maryland, Virginia and Georgia. Oz is, i am sad to admit, all our fault.

Yep.

Yep.

That's what I just SAID, dammit!