The Fermi Paradox

Lighten up, Setanta. There is no need to get personal. I am here because I enjoy this type of speculative discussion. If this isn't fun for both of us, then why play? It isn't like this matters at all (at least not until we find some Aliens to compare with our speculations).

My point was that none of these things depend on metallurgy. There is no reason that the lack of metallurgy would have prevented us from developing advanced mathematics.

I proposed that a Calcium Carbonate age might happen in place of a Bronze Age. The important part of the Bronze Age was the availability of a useful building material, Calcium Carbonate could fill the same role. This would allow the development of tools and a hard enough building material to create simple machines.

The study of energy doesn't depend on metallurgy or on fire. There are heat sources in the ocean. The physics of mechanical and potential energy don't have anything to do with heat (or metallurgy).

The scientific method has to do with reason, logic and careful experimentation. I fail to see why metal is at all required for this. Same with genetics. Gregor Mendel advanced the study of genetics by doing experiments with generations of pea plants. I fail to see how an alien Mendel would be prevented from doing the underwater equivalent of these experiments by a lack of metallurgy.

The whole point I am making is that the order of discovery can be different for alien civilizations that it was for humans. Just because we developed metallurgy before we developed genetics doesn't mean that every alien race in the Universe has to do it in this order (since genetics has nothing to do with metallurgy).

Again, if this isn't enjoyable for you, then please stop. I only will continue if there is someone who finds this sort of speculation interesting.

Wait a minute--you think of bronze as a useful building material? I begin to suspect that you and i are not on the same planet.

I don't find your speculation interesting because i think you're just arguing for argument's sake, and that you don't really have a case. But i am enjoying myself.

Should I have said "construction"? My understanding is that it was useful for building tools, weapons, armor, coinage... this is certainly more in your area of expertise than mine. I wouldn't mind learning something.

The question I was asking is whether there was anything about the role of Bronze during the Bronze age that couldn't be paralleled by another material in our speculative alien water world (e.g. Calcium Carbonate)?

I am glad you are enjoying yourself. You made the claim that technological advancement would be impossible on a water world. I don't believe you are correct.

Given that we don't have an alien water world to investigate, speculation is all we have to go on. But you haven't yet given me any reason to believe that any number of paths to technological advancement wouldn't be possible for an intelligent alien civilization that evolved on a water world.

Well, in fact, i didn't say it would be impossible. I do, however, consider it highly unlikely, for the reasons i've given. The basic stumbling block is the lack of fire. I see nothing that you've speculated about which would make me think differently.

Another group of people who have the misguided belief of the possibility of "fire underwater". An exanple of their fabricated evidence. NOAA sure ain't in the same league as the experts at A2K.

http://oceanexplorer.noaa.gov/explorations/12fire/background/volcanology/volcanology.html

P.S. Notice I misspelled the word example (above), probably a good place to start with the personal epithets against me.

Enjoy. And A2K don't ever change!!!

Now that you've posted those pictures of volcanic activity under the sea, I remember seeing those quite a few years ago. However, I think those events are not much different than above ground volcanic activity.

One more thing; I remember there were living organisms close to those active volcanoes. I think it was in National Geographic.

I say itd be waaay easier for organisms to re-colonize and evolve in the the open land rather than trying to blow our minds trying to force the concept of a "water world technology"make some kind of sense.

Remember, ALL the land dwelling mammals that reclaimed the sea, did so because of environmental pressure. They weren't able (during the Paleocene and Eocene) to evelop technology as a solution to the pressure. Technology and its manipulation requires a certain anatomical tool-kit which early"land dwelling" whales didn't have. I think its a matter of something like following a biological "least difficult route", water worlds have incredible limitations on an organism.
We couldn't become human until we had common ancestors with apes. We couldn't become apes until wehad monkeys and before that, Tarsiers.

Thats true Ciceron. They are called hydrotermal vents, they are very deep in the ocean. Big groups of organisms thrive on this incredible ecosystems independently of the life above the surfece. They do not requiere sun light as a source for susteinance.

It has been theorized that life begun in plces lake that. ANd part of the interest that actual astronomer have in Europe (Jupiters mon) is that it may have some of this vent deep on its oceans. If this is true, finding life on a place so hostile like a frozen moon of a giant gas planet may prove that life could be a constant and not something special that only occured on our planet.

That's true! Many water animals are being affected by the warming of the water. Many water life are sensitive to water temperature, and some will not be able to survive from the warming of the water.

i conccur. If something has taught us evolution, is that it takes the easiest most eficient way to solve problem. The development of technology needed that the creature in question could have facility to manipulate and alter it´s enviromets to a degree that he coul become master chemestry and physics.

Many worlds like a water world could be very abundant of life but they may get to a point of stagment.

One of the pricipal reasons for the facility of the development of technologgy on a dry world would be biological. Oxigen as an oxdant subsatence is extremely reactive. Technically we are breathing a poison that takes 60 to 100 years to kill us. This provides the help for the powerfull reactions that sustain life with the help of course of sun light. The quantity of sun light and of oxigen on a water world will heavily limit the development of a complex brain that could develop complex tought process. Powerfull brains require a lot of energy. During a minute the brain recives 5 litres of oxigenated blood. 20 per cent of every herath beat with enriched blood goes unrestricted to the brain. Brain cell can tolerate more than 3 minutes before dying.

If you had read earlier, I already mentioned mid oceanic ridges being the only sources of red-hot magma. Since water is a great conductor of thermal energy, how would an organism use a mid oceanic vent to "smelt metal"? (allowing it to cool stress free?) Im fresh outta ideas how that can be done (especially since metallurgy is the "cookbook" Involving several thermochemical processes (like oxidation or reduction, amalgamation etc)

I think weve all dismissed mid ocean vents as a "technological aid".
If you wish to discuss stuff, please try to keep up, don't try to be a snotbag (especially when youre unarmed).

Ok. In that case, I extrapolate that somewhere in the cosmos is a big brained cephalopod which just happens to have a long life span and it is explaining to its friends how unlikely it would be for air breathers to develop electrical technology because they would never have witnessed the xeno-sharks with their electrical senses swimming differently near the outcrops of magnetic rocks in their ocean.

I agree with you completely that it would be highly unlikely that the same set of conditions and events which led to human technology (or humans themselves) would happen anywhere else. But it's my bet that there are many ways in which technology can evolve, just as there are many ways that biology can evolve.

On this planet at least, it took 4.5By for technology to evolve. Life began here just about as soon as the rocks had cooled, but still it took almost 4 of those 4.5 billion years to reach multicellular organisms. I would say that the hard part for most bio-systems is just reaching multi-cellularity. It's pretty much downhill after that, even in the face of several mass extinctions (or perhaps because of them).

all electro organs responsible for sensing and shocking is a result of the controlled distribution and "downloading" of energy by pumping Na and Ca ions between sites of ATP in fish. I was looking this up today while I was at the Eastport library. Pretty cool. Its apparently all connected (magically) to striated muscle tissue movements since the ADP to ATP (and back)reaction is ubiquitous amongALL animals with striated muscle tissue. Its not an irreducible "Complexity".

Im thinking that , water , is the universal solvent for most organics needed in our own special biology but maybe, on some other galactic spiral, HF is the universal solvent for a life form based on SILICON.

There's an interesting program on NOVA about Titan and their methane lakes.
Something that may help us understand more about our universe/galaxy, and what's possible.

Dolphins, too--no hands with fingers and thumbs. That's not to say one has to have hands with fingers and thumbs, but there needs to be a way to manipulate one's environment. Some things are universal--the periodic table (for whatever it would be called elsewhere) and the laws of physics (for however they would be adduced elsewhere). All the variety which might creep in in developing a technological culture will not alter the properties of elements and the imperatives of physics. Some things are going to be required no matter how much one objects that there are other possible routes.

Just for the hell of it...is there anyone here who can say with authority that a planet with WATER covering it completely (no dry land at all)...can even exist.

Can water be like a gaseous atmosphere and envelop an entire planet?

Oops, after asking my question...I Googled it...and found there actually ARE waterworlds.

Sorry.

And interestingly,



so iron is surmised to be top of the table in first generation stars.