The Fermi Paradox

We have come from beings whose most complex thoughts were, "There is something we can eat...let's eat it"...to beings who contemplate all sorts of things those earlier beings could not even imagine.

If you do not want to call that journey a "philosophical evolution"...call it what you want.

The point I was making is not dependent upon what the behavior is called.

Abstract thought is clearly an advantage to a technologically advanced race. The ability to think and communicate symbolically is indispensable to any effort to develop technologically or scientifically. But you shouldn't confuse the ability to think abstractly with specific philosophical ideas.

There is no reason that a species (or even society) that has the mythology that "life is sacred" has any advantage technologically over a species that doesn't believe this.

The greatest technological achievements made on Earth were all made by civilizations that have committed genocide.

Whatever!

I've said what I had to say.

Max, you continue to put the cart before the horse. Humans didn't conceive of fire and go looking for it. As for plastics and other advanced materials, that came at the end of a long train of investigation beginning tens of thousands of years ago with observing and then using fire. How would your water world aliens even conceive of fire on a world on which they would never have seen it?

You are making a key mistake Setanta.

You are assuming that since human beings took a particular path to develop technologically, any alien race that develops technology will follow the exact same path. This is an invalid assumption.

There are all sorts of ways to imagine an alien race developing without mirroring the human discovery of fire. As I pointed out before; the use of tools, agriculture, breeding, simple machines, scientific method, language, mathematics, physics, chemistry, exploration and economics could all be developed without the mastery of fire.

It is possible that some things (for example electricity and sonar) might be developed earlier in their process of development by these aliens in this environment. These water world aliens might develop fire the same way we developed plastics after "a long train of investigation".

The fact that fire was key to the history of human development doesn't mean anything when we are considering an alien world.

I think phosphorus can burn under water, so many things that we humans think are not possible is possible.

sodium metal. Other things will BURN underwater by setting up a Leidenfrost envelope about the chunk. However sodium is manufactured from MOISTURE FREE , MOLTEN SALT (not gonna happen in a sea cause youll only wind up with Sodium Hydroxide)

Number agreement, ci. You got it wrong again.

Really poorly constructed sentence also. If you had constructed the sentence more artfully, you probably would not have made the number agreement error.

No, it's a valid assumption based on the necessity for metallurgy. You cannot have metallurgy without fire. You cannot have advanced technological development without metallurgy. You are the one making invalid assumptions. I see you offering absolutely no basis for the development of advanced technology absent metallurgy.

How are these aliens to develop electricity and "sonar" without metallurgy? How are they going to be able to conduct electricity in a controlled manner without metallurgy. Really, you're just shooting from the hip, and apparently not thinking about the implications of your claims.

You have this backwards. It was you who made the incredible claim that it would be impossible for a technologically advanced civilization to develop on a water planet. You made this absolute claim, it is up to you to defend it.

You are arguing there is absolutely no possible way (which given the fact this entire exercise is pure speculation and we have not yet detected any life on an alien world is an awfully bold claim). My attempts to imagine a possible way are the appropriate way to respond to your the challenge you posed. And in truth, I am having a pretty easy time of imagining numerous possible ways that these technologies could be developed on an alien water planet.

As to electricity... alien scientists living a conductive environment (such as sea water) don't need conductors. They need insulators, Calcium Carbonate, a material that will be available at primitive stages of their developing civilization, would do just fine.

You are making two unproven assertions here (that fire is necessary for metallurgy and that metallurgy is required for advanced technological development). It is possible that either or both of these assertions is false. We won't know for sure until we meet the Aliens who disprove them. The only reason you make these assertions is because you are familiar with the way human beings developed and assuming that this is the only way possible.

But even if both of these assertions are true, there are still ways to develop both fire or metallurgy . They won't be developed in the same way we developed them, but that doesn't prove they won't be developed by an intelligent and curious alien race.

It could be the these Aliens discover fire at a much later stage of their development. They will be curious about what is above the water they live in, and scientists will likely have access to the atmosphere early on in their development. Over one or two thousand years of experiments (spurred on at least by the clear link between atmosphere and underwater agriculture) they may learn quite a bit about atmospheric chemistry.

Of course, they may never use fire. Metallurgy depends on heat, not fire. With a heat source (maybe even a natural one) metal can be discovered.

max, I can agree with you about the unknowns, but from our knowledge base about the necessity for heat to work with metals is basic physics.

On this score, I need to agree with setanta.

An underwater intelligent alien civilization may have access to heat early on in their development. I am also suggesting that metals may not be as important to alien civilizations as it was to ours, at least at early stages of development.

Instead of a Bronze Age, they could have a Calcium Carbonate Age.

What i am claiming is nowhere near as hilariously unsubstantiated than what you have claimed. I am not assuming that technological cultures need to develop the way human culture has developed. I am assuming that one would need metallurgy, and you haven't even taken a stab at how, to use your examples, one would develop electricity without metallurgy (i'm gonna leave sonar alone--that's just too high-larious).

Metal is the easy part. Elemental copper was used by humans ten thousand years ago or longer. You don't need heat or fire. But for brass and bronze, and for iron, you do. I note that you have not explained how your alien culture will even know about fire.

This is an unsubstantiated assumption. Think of all the human technological advancement that didn't depend on metallurgy.

- Tools
- Simple Machines
- Mathematics
- The Laws of Physics
- Engineering/ Architecture
- Energy/Thermodynamics
- The Scientific method.
- Acoustics
- Genetics
- A lot of Chemistry

The early human scientists studying electricity (Maxwell, Von Keist, Volta, Faraday) did experiments focused on charge. Electricity is part of an undersea world and would be studied by our alien scientists. It is easy to imagine experiments that could show these phenomena underwater without the use of metal. Again, since sea water is a good conductor, you wouldn't need metal as much to conduct experiments. You would need insulators (which are readily available under the ocean).



The necessary part of invention is curiosity and innovation. Humans stumbled on x-rays and microwaves and radar and gamma radiation. These are all things that were outside of our everyday world.

An intelligent and curious alien water world scientist will be as fascinated with air as we are with space (or the ocean). Air is more accessible than space meaning that the experimentation with air will be much sooner.

It only takes a little open-mindedness and creativity to come up with multiple ways for our Alien Scientists to discover fire.

- The Alien chemists (or even alchemists) could stumble one of the many chemical reactions that lead to fire.
- The Alien scientists studying optics, particularly those curious about the atmosphere above the water could stumble on fire.
- The Alien physicists studying friction could stumble on fire.
- Lightening could strike a floating scientific platform starting a fire.
- An Alien volcanologist might come up with a theory of heat that would lead to combustion once scientists study heat in air.

But the main point is that there are tons of technological achievements that can be made before fire is discovered. We discovered it rather early, but our Aliens may not be blocked in their path of development until they already have a community of scientists and mathematicians pushing the boundaries that can discover it the same way we discovered plastic.

You're just babbling now. Have fun.

I figure that is about as gracious as you get.... so thanks. That was fun.

Defeat? Ah-hahahahahahahahahaha . . . you just trot out a bunch of BS because you can't stand the idea that you may not have an argument and you characterize that as some kind of victory? Self-delusion is, at least, reassuring for the victim.

Let's look at some of your bullshit:

- Tools

Copper certainly did not perform well enough to replace stone tools. But there was a bronze age because bronze was better.

- Simple Machines

Please describe what machines were made before metallurgy.

- Mathematics

Please describe what higher order mathematics predated metallurgy.

- The Laws of Physics

Please list the laws of physics which were adduced before the rise of metallurgy.

- Engineering/ Architecture

Oh, hey--ya got one . . . sort of. Please describe the engineering and architectural achievements of mankind before the rise of metallurgy.

- Energy/Thermodynamics

What, building fires? Please describe the principles of thermodynamics which were adduced before the rise of metallurgy.

- The Scientific method.

Ah-hahahahahahahahahahahaha . . . jeeze, you'll say anything to attempt to prop up your silly argument. Please describe the formulation of the scientific method as it existed before the rise of metallurgy.

- Acoustics

For this one, i take it you're talking about people pounding on drums.

- Genetics

Please desvribe the understanding and use of genetics by humans before the rise of metallurgy. (You're going to have serious problems there--the bronze age began shortly after the domestication of plants and animals.)

- A lot of Chemistry

Please describe the chemistry which was practiced and understood as such, before the rise of metallurgy.