Are (American) women materialistic or simply realistic?...

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I am originally from a culture that - at the time I was "coming of age" - emphasized everything "romantic" (one of the former-socialist countries).
Young women and men got married because they "fell" for each other and that was that. There was nothing "coldly calculated" or any other "material" considerations involved. You were just expected to end up with someone of the same educational level because it was assumed you had to have things in common with the person - things to talk about.

The very thought of making sure you "fall" for someone that "sit pretty" - was supposed to be a repugnant idea (not that anyone was supposed to "sit pretty" under state socialism...but some did anyway).

Then I came to the US (for a PhD). I met a "boy". He was good-looking and funny, had a wonderful character, polite and gentlemanly, very well-educated, 2 Masters degrees - a dream come true.

He is my husband today - and I love him more with every hour.

What became interesting to me though was the knowledge that a lot of American women said "no" to him in the past - as wonderful as he is. Why? Because he does not make a 6 figure income (and he may never get that opportunity in the industry he is in).

A few years ago when he told me a story about a past date...and how the chick told him flat out that she is NOT dating any man who makes under 100,000/year ...I thought that women of this land were absolutely apalling in their attitudes (greedy B*****s). So I simply delighted in my own pure, honest, non-materialistic soul. Smile

Until one day.
In the past year I have started to understand (at least partially) why women in capitalist societies are so "nervous" about dating men who don't make enough. I have always been convinced that it is because they want diamonds and "schmency" cars.

Everything was great until we decided that we would like to start a family.
Bottom line: if I do not work full-time, we cannot afford baby. If I work full-time, our child will always have absent parents and a mother who makes it home at 6-7:00pm after a long commute, mad as S*** at the traffic and the world, and ready to throw that baby right up against the wall if that becomes necessary.

There you have it. It took me a while to understand why so many "well-versed" American mothers seem to have these ultra-subtle talents to "inspire" their daughters to pick the "right" guys when they start dating ("right" meaning "money-loaded" or "with potential for...").
It may be a question of survival, it may have to do with the fact that like it or not, children will keep coming into this World, and it is getting more expensive by the day to live in the US society. Disgustingly expensive.
Some US cities are so overrated that it makes me wonder what kind of miracle is "to be lived" there that the cost of living is so high?
I have seen insanely priced "dwellings" - that Europeans would not lodge chickens in!!!

I honestly believe that the vast majority of women - naturally or not - want to be home with their children when their children are young. Some don't "have to", they'd rather be talking business - but the majority do.
And these words are coming from the mouth of a feminist, believe it or not!!

However, what kind of insane society makes it impossible for an educated, high-skills family to survive at a level where they can retain some sort of dignity - unless BOTH parents work full-time jobs?
The same society takes the liberty to kick the mother out of her job if she doesn't show up to work six weeks sharp after she popped that child out of herself?

I have come to be insanely jealous of my friends back in my home country who have their jobs and babies - and "eat them too". They get to stay home until the baby turns 3 yo and they receive 80-90% of their salary all this time. Retirement benefits too - because it is assumed that raising that stupid child IS work!!!!

I know...the terrible socialized Europe; but for God's sake...it is becoming a major luxury for a mother to be able to stay home with her infant in this country. Is this supposed to be a luxury?
Now...don't send me back to "where I came from if I don't like it here" because I DO have a husband HERE and he would not be able to find a job over there with his specialization (which is very US-specific).

Talk about immorality. And this is happening to a woman who is about to hold a PhD. Any wonder those poor black mothers I often see in the bus smack the crap out of their kids? Any patience left, anyone?
Any wonder so many American women are conditioned to chase "money-makers" and do it in the most calculated way possible?

If you guys want to eradicate the female species shown on "The Bachelor" TV show - then change something in the system.
If not, learn to deal with the BITCHES!

Your choice.

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Your rant here is twisted on so many levels that it's difficult to see what your intended point is.

Eradictaing the "female species shown on "The Bachelor"" is pretty simple. You turn the TV off and get a real life.

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Hmmm...

I think there is some truth in there, but amongst a lot of stereotypes and generalizations. How long have you been here?

I do agree that it's a shame that the workplace has not yet adjusted further to allowing parents (male or female -- a good friend of mine is a stay-at-home dad) to stay home with their children. I'm optimistic that it will happen in some way, though. The influx of women into the workplace is fairly recent, and adjustments/ corrections are still being made.

I advocate for those adjustments/ corrections when I can.

That being said, I can't think of any acquaintance of mine, ever, who has rejected or been rejected on the basis of income. Not saying it never happens, just FYI. I met my husband when we were both starving students, and his future earning power was never a factor for me. I saved half of my OWN salary for a year -- scrimping and saving -- to financially allow myself to stay home with my daughter. Then I found work where I could -- consulting gigs, stuff online -- to supplement the savings.

In other words, the system can certainly be improved and I hope it is -- I'm especially critical of some Welfare to Work initiatives that are unreasonable in their expectations and provisions for new mothers -- but knowing what the system is, one can plan for it.

By the way, if you have been at your job for more than a year and if you meet a few other requirements, the Family And Medical Leave act ensures that you can't be fired for twelve weeks, not six:

http://www.dol.gov/esa/whd/fmla/

It's a fairly recent measure (late 90's) which is part of a general trend that I hope will continue.

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Are you sure that is why other women have not married him? The majority of American men do not have a 6 figure income with no potential to ever get to that stage and they get married. He very likely could have dated a woman who would only want to make a certain amount per year. He could just as likely date some one who just wanted to meet a nice guy. There are some people (men and women) who are materialistic and some who are not. You are generalizing about one or two situations, when I can list more that are not.

I have enough to support myself. I only expected the same from my spouse no more. My friends have similar feelings. It is true that it is difficult to have children and not have both parents work. We have two wonderful children and we both work full time. It is difficult, but I have never felt like throwing a baby against the wall. It is actually the opposite. My children make working the long hours worth while. I come home with a child full of smiles and hugs, saying, "I missed you mommy. I love you mommy." It is hard, but it is worth being a little tired. It is also worth it to marry the man you love even though it may mean you cannot be home full time.

Unfortunately you have got a very bad vision of America and American women. The majority are not like you say. I would never ever allow my daughters to settle for some one as a husband because of money. It would most likely end in divorce. Why would I want my daughter to demean her and make her life miserable because she only looked at some one's earning potential? I do not have one friend who would feel the way you think. There are some, there are always some and there was in the past even when it was not necessary to have a dual income household.

You are also incorrect about kicking a mother out of her job if she does not show up to work six weeks after having a child. Not only are new mothers protected under the Family and Medical Leave Act, most businesses recognize family life balances. Where I work not only do they pay you with full benefits for 3 months, but they allowing you to take an additional 3 months without pay. They also allow where it is feasible to work shorten work weeks, to have flex time (change the hours you work), job sharing and working from home. It makes business sense if you want to keep good employees.

I do have a question for youdo you like children at all? Calling children stupid, saying you would throw them against a wall, etc. makes me concerned that you should not have children. Also, how does your husband feel about all this?

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Eradictaing the "female species shown on "The Bachelor"" is pretty simple. You turn the TV off and get a real life.[/quote]

Smile

That is one way to do it. But you are missing my point.
That type of woman does not exist only on TV (though what you see there IS an exageration of reality). However that way of "going about business" represents an ideology that real women use in real life!!

This is what I was trying to get at. Are these women just "rotten" or there is a deeper explanation for what is superficially brushed-off as "gold-digging"?

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as with almost everything 'natural' today; the evolutionary past is interfering with the current reality.

while today, realizing there are many negative socio/economic factors interfering, most women can acquire education, experience, and the skills needed to produce a respectable living.

however their instincts still tell them that they are going to need to be 'protected' by their mate, less from the physical threats in their environment, than by the economic ones.

and, being human beings, 'greed' is also a factor figuring in their decisions to do with 'mating'.

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Hmmm...

As Linkat pointed out, it's just a weak beginning for a hypothesis. It assumes that it is a phenomenon, rather than an isolated case or two.

That said, I think there are all sorts of reasons that women would like to marry a "provider" -- and the same for men, for that matter. (*coffJohnKerrycoff*) If we're talking stereotypes, which we seem to be, I tend to think of the archetypical gold-digger as being a high-maintenance woman who wants to be supported in style. Not so much a domestic sort of situation.

Now, again, if your main point here is that the American workplace should make it easier for parents to stay at home and/or spend time with their kids, I very much agree. The provisions Linkat mentions are becoming more and more common, and I think that's great. Not common enough, no, needs more work, yes. But still, encouraging signs.

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syracusa wrote:

This is what I was trying to get at. Are these women just "rotten" or there is a deeper explanation for what is superficially brushed-off as "gold-digging"?

I'm sure there are some women that could be described as "gold-digging" but I think your opening post makes way to many generalizations about relationships, women and men in general in making your point.

In the case of "The Bachelor" you have a group of women that were selected by a TV programmer to appeal to the interests of an audience. The programmer doesn't care that they represent a true cross section of American women - they only care about making the show apeal to the base desires of a small target. Have you noticed that all of thw women on these shows also wear size 4 dresses and have perfect complexions? How "normal" is that amongst the general population?

You mention your husband's experience but let me ask you this - why didn't you marry every guy you ever dated? Did you only marry your husband only for his money or was there something that was "different" about hiim that wasn't there with others?

I think the type of woman you describe exists but only in a small minorty of the population. It doesn't describe most of the women I know.

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Linkat,

In my post I was just being dramatic to make a point. As for American women, I certainly DO NOT have a "bad vision" of them. Certainly not. On the contrary, I am full of awe and wonder when it comes to those who say they can balance full-time jobs, long commutes AND children...and manage to stay happy! (It may be the opimistic nature of Americans that keeps such women happy under what I would consider extremely inhospitable circumstances) Smile

It is also maybe because I have witnessed my mom trying to be the super-trooper woman - provider, high responsibility job, 3 children and NO dmestic help whatsoever from my dad - and now, in retirement, she doesn't exactly look like a woman who had a terribly great life.

As for "the other kind" of US women - the ones who chase men with "potential" - I used to be very judgemental of them but lately I have started to "soften up" in my views - exactly because of what I said in my initial post.

I am soo excruciatingly tired when I come back from work that I honestly do not believe that I, persoanlly, would be able to offer a child what they trully need to be offered to grow up right - under the circumstances.
As it stands now, I never make it home earlier than 6:00-6:30pm. Many times at 7:00pm. I am having a hard time accepting that you can be a really good mother between 7:00pm-10:pm in the evening - when your energy and resources are already drained.
I get home very grumpy. Smile

But even if i didn't...what about the rest of the day? Your kid grows up away from you and you away from him/her.
Believe me...I am in a social science field where you constantly hear about feminism and how "women want careers". It is ironic and painful that after spending my entire life in the pursuit of ultra-fancy careers ...I realized that it is very possible that my ideal occupation may in fact have been the "stay-at-home" mom. But guess what?
"Stay-at-home" moms need "go-to-work-and-make-mega-bucks" dads nowadays.

As for my husband...it is true that in the past, he may have been drawn towards the "kind" of women that were likely to have those "kinds" of views. That is, ranging from "cutie" to "gorgeous".
Like most young men, he was conditioned to always want the "pretty" ones; and it appears that many (or should I say "most"?) American pretty girls are raised with the idea that "female prettiness" must beget "male financial potential".
Every time, those women operated on the premise that "If I bring beauty to the table you better bring the money". He didn't have the money...so the "dating" stopped before it even took off.

Otherwise, he is an incredible man - I would not exchange him for any other soul on Earth. But we have BOTH come to wish that he made more money, so we can have some sanity left after a day of work and an actual family life.

Unfortunately, he did not choose a very lucrative industry and at 40 it is hard to start things all over again.

Oh, well...

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syracusa wrote:

But guess what?
"Stay-at-home" moms need "go-to-work-and-make-mega-bucks" dads.

Nope. See my first post.

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Well when you have children you make compromises. It is as simple as that. If I expect to have a particularly hard day, I arrange to have my husband pick up my children and the other way around for him. He also works as much, if not more, in domestic duties. You have to otherwise you will go crazy. You do get tired a lot, but for me it is worth it. I love my children and I love my job too. Actually working (although I do wish for a shorten work week - but cannot afford it), I feel makes me a better mom. I think taking care of young children full time because they are so demanding, it helps to have something else outside the home. Would I like to have more time with my children - of course. So wouldn't my husband, but that is not the reality. The reality is we need to pay bills. I might as well enjoy my work too. I would much rather be in the situation I am in today, than to have settled for a man because he was wealthy. I am much happier for it.

I feel in an ideal situation, women and men should have the choice to stay home with their children or work. Unfortunately it is not reality. You can either complain or do something about. If your work does not offer very good benefits to provide for work life balance, and this is important to you, start to look elsewhere or talk with your boss if you feel comfortable or HR about these issues.

If you and your husband want to have children, make sure you discuss the implications. You will have to make compromises with your career, your husband and your energy. Although I sometimes say jokingly to my husband when things are crazy, why did we have childrenI know I am happier with them (much more tired), but happier. And I had my children in my mid to late 30s. I see nothing at all wrong with being a stay at home mom, it is an important job. I give them lots of credit, it is much more taxing on you physically and mentally staying at home with young children than to going to work. I do have to say that it is much easier on working moms and dads if you have family nearby. Until my children are/was Pre-K age, my parents have taken them care of them. It is a weight off you when you feel confident on the care they are receiving. I still feel I get lots of time with them.

As far as time with your children, I once read some research on stay-at-home moms versus working moms on time spent with children. Both spend about the same time conversing and giving direct interactions with them. In other words quality time. Stay-at-home moms may be around them more often, but typically are not conversing with them and interacting with them directly, just in the same room. It is not that they are neglecting them, but the child is playing with their toys, coloring or something, while the mom may be cooking, cleaning, etc. It seems what working moms tend to do is to neglect their sleep rather than the time they spend with their children. I am also lucky in that I have lots of vacation time and time off from work. It totals to 6 weeks a year.

I wonder where you live and have lived in the US. Because depending on what part of the country, what type of people you have been exposed to, etc. may be why you are saying most men this and most women that. The stereotypes you are stating is certainly not the norm in the Northeast. Women are taught they can be whoever they want, that beauty is not skin deep, that you can provide for yourself and be independent, men help with the housework, etc. Funny because I once went on a date with a man (first and only blind date). He obviously was taken with me, because he said, "If you and I were to get together you wouldn't have to worry about a thing." Right away, I thought, yeck. I can take care of myself. I do not need any man to provide for me. I did not like that attitude at all. And refuse the next date with him.

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syracusa, I see you added "nowadays" to the sentence I quoted -- FYI, my daughter is 3 and I'm a stay-at-home mom right now...

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Yes, I did - because today it really is harder to do this (compared to the fifties for example). First, you need to make serious cut-backs - which let's say you do. But most importantly, the working spouse must earn what is considered "a high income" in order for the family to maintain a middle-class lifestyle and thus retain SOME dignity in this society. To us, this means being able to save enough for college education & retirement and live in a safe neighborhood, with decent schools and where property values are not in danger of plummeting sooner or later.

As for you, personally as an example...one piece of info I do not have is your husband's income. Not that I am requiring it!!!!

All in all, after making thousands of budgets and thinking about where we could "cut back" - we could not even begin to think about having a family unless I work (in a place that provides health insurance).

We also happen to have another fixed expense that most families do not: annual double plane tickets to Europe (if we have kids - extra). We must go see my family.

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My husband's income would not be considered high. He has been a postdoctoral scientist.

Yes, it's harder than in the 50's, of course. This goes back to what I said about the workplace adjusting and correcting for the influx of women. Ideally, parents (again, I think there is much to be said for stay-at-home DADs as well as stay-at-home moms) would have the choice between work, home, or some combination thereof. Strides have been made in that direction. Meanwhile, I can attest that it is not impossible with careful planning and a fair amount of sacrifice. I've had to watch every dollar for the past several years, but I'm thrilled to have the opportunity to stay at home with my daughter.

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A very good male friend of mine was stationed in Germany in the infantry division. He met a German girl. She ended up pregnant. They get married. He got sent to Iraq. He is now out of Irag and out of Germany. His wife and child moved back to the states with him and are living off base, but he is still in the Army.

While in Germany she got paid to stay home with her child. So when she moved she didn't tell the German authorities and still collects the money. They think she still lives in Germany. (long story)

Anyways..... she is a stay at home Mom. But she can't wait till her hubby gets in the door every night so he can take care of the child and she can go out. On the weekends....it is also his job to care for the child. Anytime he is home......it is her time off, she tells him. So she goes out with friends....or goes shopping...or shuts herself in the computer room and surfs the net.

Her father-in-law went down to visit a couple weeks ago and she made him feel so bad he left early. She actually got angry with him for wanting to play golf and not take the one year old golfing so she could have yet another day off.

She spent two weeks at my home at Christmas time. I found her to be very spoiled and lacking in responsiblity as a wife and mother. Long....longgggggg story. But I thought to myself.....it's very nice for her country to pay for her to stay home. But she seems to think in America she is "owed" much more than she is getting. Everytime the child needed a simple diaper change.....she refused to do it. After all....it was "her time off" Confused

She says Americans don't know a thing about "family". I'm still shaking my head over her. She seems to think everyone "owes" her.

I'm not saying she is the "norm". I'm just saying she has had way too much handed to her on a silver platter one way or another. And it never seems to be enough.

Not even sure why I posted this. It's late and I can't sleep. So I'm just ramblin' I guess Smile

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Bookmark - some interesting points to consider...on all sides.

KP

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I'm not even sure where to start here. Maybe I'll pop in later. Confused

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Linkat wrote:

Well when you have children you make compromises.

Linkat,

Thank you for your detailed answer and the tips. I know you guys are right in many respects...I agree with many of the ideas posted here.

However, it remains a reality that for us (and I am sure for many other Amwrican families) it is very tricky to "fix" things in a way that would allow us to catch our breath after such a long time.

I, especially, am very burnt-out from a long, long PhD program...and no light in sight yet.
Unluckily enough, my husband's company (which is quite small) does not provide health insurace for dependents. He can add them onto his plan but at a cost that is a royal joke (not an option for us).
As for vacation days ...waow having six weeks vacation around here...you can consider yourself a jackpot winner!

The German girl example: I suppose just-babbling-brook used it as a way of wondering if I might not be "yet another one" of those "spoilt" Europeans who "are waiting to "have things handed to them on a silver platter".

Well...I don't know about that German girl, shame on her if she is taking advantage of things and people in her life to such an extent; but I can assure you - like you assure me about the generalization I was making earlier about men-women relationships in US - that most people in Europe DO NOT have this type of mentality and do not operate like this. They work and strive like everyone else - but they also believe in a balance between work and life; and they do not believe that it is OK to work an entire family to the point of exhaustion and despair just so they make ends meet.
Hence...you know the public attitude: more social programs, peopele feel a little more security... obviously that results in a less dynamic economy...but at the end of the day, not many Western Europeans "bitch" too much about their lives over there.
With EE - that's another story. I am from Eastern Europe - and we have not exactly been into "silver platters" lately have we...especially after 1989.

Besides, silver is one thing. Having some sanity left is another.
But yes, I do agree that you have to keep searching for better opportunities and situations.

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Syracusa - you said you are burnt out from your PhD program - right there you have a simple answer. I attended grad school while I was working full time and can agree you get burnt out going to work full time and school part time. I did not have children while I was in this circumstance. My simple solution - wait until you finish your PhD program before having children. Once you complete, hopefully you will be able to obtain a job with good benefits and appropriate maternity leave. Always make sure when you interview for jobs to look at the complete package and what is important to you. Because of certain benefits, some offers with lower annual salary maybe a better deal than ones offering a higher salary. The thing is I waited to have children until the time was best (time may never be exactly perfect). On the negative side, I was much older than many when I had children. But on the positive, we are more financially secure, and I am more career secure with enough tenure to take advantage of accruing lots of vacation time, to have found a company that is work family friendly.

My husband's company also does not provide health care - I get that at my place of employment. Also one of the reasons for having so much vacation time is that I have an officer title and have many years of experience. By staying with a company and sometimes an industry you can accrue much more vacation time. The six weeks include personal days and sick days as my company classifies them in the same bucket to make time off as equal as possible.

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Linkat,

Right now I AM working a full-time job (and working on my dissertation at the same time). The funny thing is that this job DOES offer some of the best benefits you can find in the US (I don't even think it gets any better than this for a non-academic full-time position). As long as both my husband and I stay in our full-time jobs, we are fine - benefits and money-wise.

But this the catch-22: I must stay IN IT in order to keep these benefits!!
AND I DON'T WANT TO because it involves a lot of commuting and that would make the "have children" situation very screwy.

I love teaching, this is what I did to put myself through grad school until recently; and I would continue to do that while starting a family (more flexibility, can work from home some etc) but the few classes you can teach as a non-tenured adjunct can slowly drive you into poverty (no benefits, poor pay etc).

At this pace, I am going to be old before I get tenure - especially if I have to be in a job that is non-academic in the meantime.
To get tenure, you must publish. To publish, you must have time. To have time, you must have money. So on so forth.
I still hope to get tenure one day - but in the meantime, I am advancing into my 30's...and like you said...the worry of getting too old for kids is there too!!

And I think to myself:..."what a won-der-ful woooorld..."

Very Happy

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Are (American) women materialistic or simply realistic?...

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