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Human Entitlement

 
 
Smileyrius
 
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Reply Sat 29 Mar, 2014 07:47 am
@mikeymojo,
Try to remember the apprentice illustration is allegory, if you want to argue the illustration objectively you could also argue that we have no uniform or PPE and that the dental plan is rather lacking. Man was however given a job to do, to make the world like the garden of Eden, to fill the earth and subdue it.

Would you be satisfied with mans governing of the earth if you looked upon it from above?
Is continued existence for man proof of his ability to rule his self?
What of the ruining of the earth?
What of that big red button and mans itchy trigger finger?
Do you believe man to be capable of sustaining his rule for much longer with industry and technology threatening to destroy the very earth he occupies?
mikeymojo
 
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Reply Sat 29 Mar, 2014 12:01 pm
@Smileyrius,
No, I wouldn't be satisfied with how Man rules itself (or how much their bibles skewed my name) but I certainly wouldn't save them from themselves when I created Man with the ability to do so themselves. If Man destroys Eden, they destroy Eden. It's Man's mistakes that DON'T have to be mistakes. Itchy trigger fingers, that's Man's problem to figure out, NOT GOD'S. It's not like God doesn't literally have 'all the time in the world' to retry if Man destroys themselves. Problem is Man has turned God into a Man through religion for Man's excuse to Rule over one another. Because Man says God does the same thing. To me that's total b.s. because God obviously has no intent to Rule over Man. If God did, God is obviously a crappy ruler then and would anyone in their right mind follow such a 'leader'? A 'leader' that single handedly let Man become 'little devil's' by not fixing the 'problem of sin' when it first happened. I don't know about you but I expect my leader's to fix problems right away. Not thousands of years afterwards.

Apologies for the delayed responses btw, crazy work schedule.
Smileyrius
 
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Reply Tue 1 Apr, 2014 05:39 am
@mikeymojo,
Your premise that god created man to rule his self without the necessary nature to do so ideally would be incredibly injust.
I refer back to the illustration of the master and the apprentice for your argument against gods rulership. If you see no wisdom in him allowing man to present his challenge that he does not need gods rule, I shall not seek to convince you further my friend.
Fixing sin suggests sin is anything other than a godless act, a sin is anything that goes against gods purpose or guideline for man. So should he have removed our free will and stomp out any question without answer? Should God follow the pattern of a dictator? Would you respect a dictatorship in your own country?

With. Regard to man humanising God, we were made in his image, he allows us to view him in ways that we can understand, the bible portrays him for exampl as a king, a shepherd, a teacher and a father to name a few. You earlier suggested that you hold some reverence to the bible, do you think these images are inaccurate? Would you rather a God that is not a distant mysterious figure that no man could understand? That god is not the god of the bible that i read. The bible is full of his actions and emotions, he does not become a man, rather he becomes a person that I myself have grown to like.
mikeymojo
 
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Reply Tue 1 Apr, 2014 09:38 pm
@Smileyrius,
My premise has been Man DOES have the necessary nature to rule and save themselves, hence not NEEDING a savior. In other words Man, with the ability to reason and form social concepts such as cooperation, shouldn't need a Savior to 'fix' Man's follies snd problems. Is it not an insult to say God's natural gifts to Man aren't enough to get the job done?Why should God save Man if Man knows better? These are the questions that make it hard for me to believe that God even exists.
Free will is what causes sin to even exist. God created Man in His image, in God's free will. Our free will is God's greatest gift and knowing sin is PART of that gift. Man has to learn what NOT to do in order to build the world God intended Man to have. That makes way more sense to me rather than God is continually punishing Man because Man disobeyed God and brought sin on themselves.
My problem with the bible is it seems like it's been conceptualized to fit inequality, that God plays 'favorites' and that someone born into another belief system, against their will mind you, will never be forgiven by God. Is it fair that a Buddhist who has never had access to Christian beliefs, will be punished if they don't accept Jesus? So their non-choice of what society they were born into is grounds for punishment? That sounds like dictator behavior, not Godly behaviour.
Smileyrius
 
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Reply Wed 2 Apr, 2014 04:09 pm
@mikeymojo,
You have a lot of faith in mans ability my friend, which is admirable. Unfortunately for me, I think 6000 years of mans history has thus far failed to show much promise. The last 100years have been especially noteworthy. Do you believe world peace will be achieved before world ruination?

If a master has two apprentices, one has correct instructions and the other was mistakenly given wrong instructions, and the first follows his instructions without due care, yet the second earnestly follows his instructions to a T, which do you think shows a more promising and employable attitude? if god is as just as scripture describes him to be, do you not think that ones demographics would be taken into consideration? Jesus teachings were that the greatest commandment was that you love god with your whole heart, your whole soul, and your whole mind, and that you must love your neighbour as yourself. If a man has everything else wrong, but keeps these commands, is he not fulfilling what has been asked of him? The question should be,Would a man if given the chance to do so correctly, serve god whole heartedly. That would be a fair and just measure of all mankind.

I do not know that my instructions are perfect and pure, although I am very confident in my judgement, I thus study hard and do my best to follow the guidance I glean from it. I would hope that Allah, Vishnu or Thor would note my efforts should I be incorrect.
Krumple
 
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Reply Wed 2 Apr, 2014 07:11 pm
@mikeymojo,
mikeymojo wrote:

Why in the world would God entitle Man with a savior, when Man has the ability to save themselves?


The whole point of the christian theology is to break you down and make you indebted to it. In other words a mind slave. They first do this by claiming you are guilty of something you had no part in and you must seek redemption for that. Then they tighten the door by saying there is only one method to obtain that redemption. It is typical cult 101 teachings.

They create the problem. (poisoning the well)

If you buy the problem, then you are hooked.

Then they try to sell you the solution.

Buying the solution creates a circular problem which turns you into a mind slave. You pay tribute to the church and the church just re instills the cult programming. So that you won't stray away or break the bonds and discover the actual truth.

mikeymojo
 
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Reply Wed 2 Apr, 2014 11:08 pm
@Smileyrius,
I have a lot of faith in Man's abilities and I have a feeling God does as well, our still being here after thousands of years shows that faith. God has that faith because nothing would make God HAPPIER than Man creating a perfect world themselves, as they were meant to do. Sending a Godly messiah to do it for us would be a HUGE disappointment, would it not? Especially when Man was CREATED with the gifts to accomplish building a perfect world. God's happiness should be taken into account, I'm sure we'd both agree, God would be much more pleased if Man used their gifts and built paradise themselves.

I think God judges Man as a whole on whether or not Man creates a perfect world. If so, we are in our "Heaven", the dead are risen and cleansed and everyone lives happily ever after, as God intended. If not, Man dies out and everyone forgets that any of this even happened. A literal "atheist view of death" for all. I don't think God is sending a messiah because we really shouldn't need one. The ball is (and always has been) in our court.

You acknowledged a few posts ago that most Christians are more Christ dependant than Christ like. 6000 years of human history has shown that most people are God dependant rather than God like. That is why human history has been such a mess. Most people depend on God to fix our problems. Why? Because that's what scripture says. Every generation EXPECTS the messiah because scripture tells that a savior will eventually come someday. And that leads to stagnation in dealing with our problems as history has shown.

I do want to thank you for the thoughtful discussion smiley. I would never ask you to go against your judgement, that's not fair to anyone.

mikeymojo
 
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Reply Wed 2 Apr, 2014 11:13 pm
@Krumple,
That's actually a pretty brilliant description krumple. Thanks
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Smileyrius
 
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Reply Fri 4 Apr, 2014 02:22 am
@mikeymojo,
I admit I have enjoyed our exchange Mikey.

I do not disagree with you on mans ability to create a paradise here on earth. But my faith in mankinds ability to establish peace is not exactly booming.
Working on your premise, I can see man destroying the earth long before he makes it a paradise. Man is selfish, power hungry and greedy. No equality can rise out of that, and without equality you cannot find peaceful equilibrium. Man will always step on mans shoulders to empower his self causing friction, and where friction exists, so too will wars on all scales. As bigger and more destructive weapons are being invented, I believe that should mans rule go on, we will eventually pay the ultimate price.

Man has the capacity for love, justice and wisdom, however of all Gods qualities, man unbalances his yoke by seeking power over all else.

I also agree with the atheists view of death, after all it is scripturally agreeable. The dead are conscious of nothing according to scripture. The difference between our views are whether there is a being that at an appointed time, has the power to recreate a man with full cognitive memory in tact. (john 5:28)
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