Holocaust revisited

I'm puzzled. Becker is just a light-weight rabble-rouser looking for the oxygen of publicity, so I am wondering why you are giving it any serious consideration.

Because Dale is very naive* for his age?

(Euphemism for clueless).

Yea Fres, Rag asks the same q

Yet one of our apparent participants recently asking about washing cars and salting eggs, yet nobody has yet accused him, how come

http://able2know.org/topic/224936-1

Alas alack. But Tim, wonder if you might address the intent of the OP, impact of upbringing or association upon characteristics considered by some deterministic

Didn't you notice the "parody" tag on that ?

A hint, Dale, before you react right away to any dumbness that is posted:

If you don't know the poster, click on his avatar and read a few of his posts.

You will, hopefully, get an idea about his views of life, political inclinations and so on.

You'll probably spot the trolls either.

No fres I'm embarrassed to admit

But what do you suppose is being parodied and why

Thanks Tim, when in doubt I'll try it

Tho not quite sure when to be in doubt

If any German-Americans are happy that the Holocaust happened, I would guess it might be for the same reason that many native Europeans might be happy that the Holocaust happened, in my opinion. And, that opinion would include the thinking that Jews in Europe were considered interlopers (aka, outsiders) to the good Christenized pagans that once decided that Europe was there for the grabbing (early Middle Ages). So, since after two-thousand years of Jews living in Europe, and being valued by the respective king/prince for the Jews' role in feudal Europe, the Holocaust got rid of the Jew from the workings of state affairs and the economy. In other words, in my opinion, based on my reading over decades, many Europeans did not want to compete with Jews, as they had for two thousand years. Considering that Europe had Jews, Christians, and some gypsies, Europeans never learned to value diversity. The U.S. is quite diverse, and the U.S. seems to be different than Europe in that it can appreciate the contribution of the diverse citizens. Europeans just seem to see diversity as "the outsider." Perhaps, a throwback to the old pagan Germanic tribes?

What is that you find perplexing about considering the obviously idiotic comment of a rabble-rouser from a perspective that might lead to insight or at least an interesting discussion?

I don't see that dalehileman has credited Becker with any wisdom, nor can this thread be seen as feeding a troll.

Becker made a outlandish provocative statement, which despite it's lack of substance caused dalehileman to consider and offer for discussion something of substance.

Would anyone now, if redeposited in Nazi Germany, be able to resist whatever influences that drove a nation to horrendous acts and near annihilation?

Was it something in the German character that led them to follow Hitler's mad course, or are we all capable of the same thing?

I won't say this is a particualry original question, but it's not frivilous.

I admit I'm not sure I follow his thinking on free will and determinism, but I will be interested to see if he expands on it.

As something of a side note I recently read of a study conducted wherein participants were shown a steady stream of slides concerning free will.

One group was shown slides which related that nueroscientists have proven that there is no such thing as free will and our every decision and action is pre-determined by our unconcious physical being.

The other group was shown slides which strongly presented the opposite position.

After the slide shows the participants were presented with an opportunity to cheat in rewarding themselves or to follow the designated rules.

Overwhelmingly those who were bombarded with the message that there is no free will cheated, while the others presented with the opposite message did not.

The originator of the study was quick to acknowledge that this test said very little if anything about whether free will exists, but strongly suggested that a properly functioning society needs it's members to think it does.

Good question.

I have no idea how old you are timur, but if dalehileman is in fact 82 (and I have no reason to believe he is not) I think you may be mistaking a quite seasoned and rational approach to this forum with naievity (cluelessness).

There is nothing particulary impressive about pointing out the inane nature of Becker's posts, and failing to do so is hardly the equivalent of accepting them as reasonable.

Personally, I find it difficult to resist pointing out how ridiculous some posts are but, upon reflection, I can't say this is a a credit worthy reaction. Sure, I get a kick out of it, but someone like Becker (not to mention any number of other members in this forum) is not about to read my comment and think "Well if Finn thinks I'm being ridiculous..."

I would suggest that they are also not going to be moved or transformed by timur's comments either.

From what I can tell (and I admit I've not made a concerted study in this regard) it's pretty tough (if at all possible) to rile dalehilman. I suppose this could be seen as an indication of his being clueless ( "The poor old fool doesn't even know when he is being insulted!"), but I think not.

Do I think anti-semitism and other prejudices are like whirlpools which suck people in ?...yes, of course ! I think prejudice is a universal social/tribal force which may may even be considered endemic, natural or even an aspect of evolution (given evidence from the tribalism of primates).

Do I think that Becker's characterization of "German Americans" as a current cohesive group with anti-semitism as a part of its tribal "glue" ? No, of course not !

Do I think any function is served by airing Becker's trolling operation and hand wringing over the inability of much of humanity to stand up for an idealistic concept of "universal moral principles" ? No, I think it is futile. because "morality" is actually never universal. It is a function of language, parochial religion (another tribal force), physical similarity, and socio-economic context, and operates on geographical and social distance metrics.

Good post, Finn, and I agree Dale has made a good point, or two.

And you can believe whatever you want. My experience tells me that you very often contribute very interesting and well reasoned comments.

I don't agree that the OP is "hand wringing" and I've already explained that I don't think that his riffing off a Becker post is a transgression.

Thank you Finn for your support, a rare commodity hereabout. I was merely speculating on the determinists' possible response, that yes, I most certainly would have been corrupted; but even so, this later sense of dismay I hope to convey as a basis for reconsidering all our fondest prejudices

By no means, Finn

Thanks Rog; gosh, there are several of us. Prepare to be blitzed by the crowd seemingly terribly angry at all times about nearly everything

I wonder sometimes whether we should continue baiting them, in retrospect seems almost cruel, however they might deserve it

Thank you for your comments. I suggest that pronouncements about "free will" or the discussion thereof are all very well when the chips are up, but fall by the wayside when the chips are down. And by the grace of any divinity one cares to cite, any one of us could be a "killer" according to circumstance. But by all means have a fair weather discussion of the issue which is clearly important to those coming to terms with "self" if of German (or Jewish) association.

Well put Fres. I remember vividly when my mom expressed horror at my slaughter of a live fish to access its air-filled bladder. In a positive example of determination her reaction might have set my attitude from that moment forward. Even today in a recent Let. to the Ed. of our local Fourth Estate I defended the porker from the torturous depredations of certain large religions

…that consider it perfectly okay-with God's approval--to hang him by the rear legs then cut his throat so he bleeds to death before slaughter