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Two original basic human groups?

 
 
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Aug, 2013 09:06 am
@farmerman,
Another take on the thing, particularly "cro magnoids", or moderns who appear closely related to Cro Magnon man:

http://realhistoryww.com/world_history/ancient/cro_magnon_Homo_sapien.htm

0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Aug, 2013 09:06 am
@gungasnake,
you guy don't seem to "Buy" genetics anymore than you "buy" into the fact that we can measure the bombardment of neutrinos onto the earth, eh?

gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Aug, 2013 09:11 am
@farmerman,
There's some sort of a problem with the genetic take on the subject. Your chart shows Basque being roughly the same as the surrounding Indo-Europeans and that could be from interbreeding over long spaces of time. Nonetheless Basque language is totally unrelated to IE groups and their history and culture go back much further.
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Aug, 2013 09:31 am
@gungasnake,
The Bqsques ARE a problem of categorization. There are a number of "Fake" linguistic stocks and artifacts that dispute the c;lose origins with Chalcolithic Age western European stock. ALso mDNA data casts some doubts on tne single origin and association with W European stock. BAsques have been categorized basically upon DNA evidence and the alternative theories of multiple inclusion into their communities seems to be based upon inbreeding by S Med "volunteers"

We know how and where they settled in the late Stone ages but not from where they came, by either linguistics or SNP/STR/Haplogroup demographics.


0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Aug, 2013 10:00 am
Linguistics and genetics commonly diverge a great deal. If a people are not conquered, their language and culture may well survive while they interbreed and add a good deal of genetic material which was not original to those from whom the language came. Some students of the origin of the Basques believe that they may be the survival of pre-Kurgan invasion peoples of Europe's UP civilizations. Although driven back into a small enclave, they were not conquered in any conventional sense until the post-Napoleonic Spanish governments asserted their authority all across the Peninsula. That was not sufficient to "kill off" the language.

The Koreans and the Japanese share a good deal of genetic heritage with the Han (the people we call the Chinese). This was recognized in the 19th century through morphology (facial and other physiological traits) and lead to a good deal of confusion, since the Koreans and the Japanese speak Altaic languages, with Turkish being their nearest linguistic cousin. Neither the Koreans nor the Japanese were ever conquered by the Han, so although there may have been a significant amount of interbreeding, they retained their Altaic languages. In the 19th century, linguistic research reached a high level of sophistication, but without reliable genetic evidence, no clear picture of origins could be put together.
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Aug, 2013 03:12 pm
The book in question is called Cosmos in Collision. Many of the claims are weird, but what I've read so far seems to hold together logically at least.

One of ideas is that there is a kind of a nexus of characteristics which separates the Cro Magnon cultures from those of the people descended from Adam and Eve and anybody else of that "saltation". One would be stone tools and technology. The people of the Bible appear to have been metal technology people from day one. Cro Magnons and their descendants on the other hand invariably went on using stone tools and weapons until forced out of it and, in one extreme case, the Basque words for things which cut (knives, axes etc.), appear to be derived from the word for a stone:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Basque_people

The idea of leftover Cro Magnons walking around also appears to resolve several Bible conundrums such as who was Cain worried about killing him when supposedly humans on the planet included only Adam, Eve, and himself.
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Aug, 2013 11:30 am
@gungasnake,
or perhaps ABle,Cain and their parents were a neat plot device to represent the original dysfunctional family.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Aug, 2013 03:56 pm
Or perhaps the bible is just a collection of bullsh*t stories made up by ignorant and arrogant me--the quintessential big fish in a very small pond.
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Aug, 2013 04:15 pm
The authors of this thing note that there is a kind of a collection of things which the Bible and Jewish literature would have to know about if Adam and Eve were descended from Cro Magnon people. One would be the atlatl, which was common amongst Cro Magnons. Another would be stone tools. Another would be some sort of a memory of hominids, including the Neanderthal. Jewish literature doesn't know anything about any of that. Israelites don't appear to have even had javelins, much less atlatls or atlatl spears.

The Basque on the other hand, assuming the standard claim of the final Neanderthal stand in Europe being in Southern Spain, would likely be the last group of modern humans ever to see a Neanderthal. Basque folklore in fact includes something called a "Basajaun", which isn't that different from one of Danny Vendramini or Pierre Boule's reconstructions of Neanderthals:

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-oMuPEK5ty-A/UUdpzwTKAaI/AAAAAAAASnM/C0n5UxTXupQ/s320/1.jpg

http://www.phantomsandmonsters.com/2010/07/legendary-humanoids-basajaun-lord-of.html
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Aug, 2013 04:31 pm
Jesus . . . you'll believe any old f*ckin' bullsh*t . . . and if you don't get an entertaining story, you'll just make it up as you go along . . .
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Aug, 2013 04:50 pm
@Setanta,
In Basque language, the words for knives and axes are derived from the word for a rock.

0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Aug, 2013 06:01 pm
@gungasnake,
Something vaguely Oopish about this dude.  http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-oMuPEK5ty-A/UUdpzwTKAaI/AAAAAAAASnM/C0n5UxTXupQ/s320/1.jpg

0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Aug, 2013 07:19 pm
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Aug, 2013 08:23 pm
@Setanta,
Another take on ancient realities...

0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Aug, 2013 10:32 am
The book I'm talking about here appears to be around 300 pages ( I have the Kindle version) and it is a science book but I wouldn't call it an academic book, it appears to be targeted towards the educated lay person.

http://www.amazon.com/Cosmos-in-Collision-ebook/dp/B00C4MF8UE/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1364793440&sr=8-1&keywords=cosmos+in+collision

The main ideas of the book are not overly complicated.

Four of our planets (Nepturn, Saturn, Mars, Earth) have the same roughly 26-degree axis tilt, indicating they were captured as a group by our sun at some relatively recent time. The most common version of a theory as to what life on this planet was like under those conditions ("Saturn Theory") amounts to claiming that Earth and Mars were moons of Saturn which would have been a brown dwarf star in prehistoric times. It is thought that moons or planets orbiting dwarf stars do so INSIDE the heliospheres of those stars and that the light they get is missing the middle part of the light spectrum, i.e. that you'd be living in a deep purple world:

http://saturndeathcult.com/the-sturn-death-cult-part-1/a-timeless-age-in-a-purple-haze/

http://saturndeathcult.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/Purple-Age-of-Man2.jpg

Hence also the huge eyes of many of Earth's oldest creatures, particularly dinosaurs and hominids, as per the images above. There would have been enough radiant energy for warmth, but not much light.

At the same time, and minus the bodies with the 26-degree axis tilts, the Sun/Jupiter/Mercury part of the system would have looked more like what is turning out to be normal for gas giants orbiting main-sequence stars i.e. Jupiter would have been inside the Sun's habitable zone and the four large moons of Jupiter would have gotten light both from Jupiter AND the sun. Particularly humans and dolphins, with the smallest relative eye size of advanced creatures, would have had to have originated in that part of the system and not on Earth or Mars, for either of which, at the time, they would have been hideously maladapted.

The second part of the book describes the reasons for believing that the largest of Jupiter's moons, Ganymede, would have been a sort of a fresh-water ocean paradise under those conditions.

0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Aug, 2013 05:43 pm
Another claim here and this one strikes me as particularly interesting...

The claim is that the group of planets which was captured did not fly straight into the plane of the Sun/Jupiter/Mercury system from a distance but rather spiraled in and that this spiral approach produced one or two near approaches BEFORE the smaller system was captured outright. In other words, the small group would make a near approach and then swing back out into deep space and then make another near approach a few thousand years later.

The claim is that this explains the difference between the Cro Magnon and Genesis saltations. I.e. the Cro Magnon group transferred to Earth on one such near approach and then was trapped here as the Saturn/Neptune/Mars/Earth group swung back out into space and then, some thousands of years later and possibly 30 or 40 thousand, another such near approach occurred and the Genesis group transferred. That would explain the two groups being genetically all but identical while the cultures and technologies were totally different. The authors don't provide a theory as to the mechanism of transfer.
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Aug, 2013 05:22 am
@gungasnake,
gungasnake wrote:
The authors don't provide a theory as to the mechanism of transfer.

Bummer, that would have been really entertaining Smile

If the two planets approached to within even a single atmosphere's distance between them, then the two gravitational fields would have cancelled each other out for a while and provided a nice soft "float zone" between the two planets (before they moved away again). So perhaps when the planets were really close together the Cro's just took their opportunity and JUMPED from one to the other.
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Aug, 2013 08:07 am
@rosborne979,
No idea... The only thing the book really says is that whatever means humans used to get from the one side of the ancient system to the other, it would only have been possible at the points of close intersection, as the Neptune/Saturn/Mars/Earth system spiraled in.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Aug, 2013 09:30 am
It's is just amazing what loony bullshit Gunga Dim is willing to treat as though it were serious.
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Aug, 2013 10:36 am
There seems to be three things you need to explain about Ganymede: the ultra-low moment of inertia, the intrinsic matnetosphere, and the dark rocky areas, some the size of Switzerland, which are embedded in the surface ice, that is, IF you believe the standard theory which posits an icy surface on top of a 600km deep outer mantel of salt water.

The deep salt-water outer mantel is supposed to explain the low moment of inertia as well as provide the conductivity needed to achieve the magnetosphere via some sort of dynamo process, nonetheless the moon is too small for any sort of a dynamo process and the basic theory doesn't really work. There's also the problem that a rocky area the size of Switzerland would not float and hence would never be found in surface ice on top of a 600km deep salt-water ocean.

Pumice, however, DOES float and the combination of P-holes and the very high ratio of surface area to volume of pumice would in fact be highly conductive. What McLachlan and Holden are claiming is that the outer mantel of Ganymede is pumice and not salt water, that Ganymede in ancient times had both anchored islands and floating bergs of pumice, and that the rocky areas seen in the surface ice are what's left of that.

They are claiming that the intrinsic magnetospheres of rocky planets including Ganymede and Earth were fused in by ancient Birkeland currents and are thus remnants and are not being continually generated by any sort of dynamos, thus explaining the observed weakening of Earth's magnetosphere.



 

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