And so it goes.

@boomerang,

Many atheists in the world at large and on a2k simply are without beliefs in gods. I've posted and many others have posted that too many times to count.
People keep trying to pigeonhole all atheists as believing there are no gods; this has been one of the major long term argument subjects on this website.

So it goes.

1 Reply

@ossobuco,

The debate rages in other places as well but I'm not convinced.

There are lazy atheists just like there are are lazy believers.

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While I am a sf reader I always hated Vonnegut's stuff.

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@boomerang,

Lazy!

Good day, Madam.

Cool

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@boomerang,

Quote:

There are lazy atheists just like there are are lazy believers.

There is Boom a third category, the apodictical existential pantheist who maintains Her existence or non- to be a matter of semantics

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Tagging...

I don't get why someone would tag this thread "Stupidity". Also, it's "cynicism", not "cynacism".

I suggest the following tags:
Optimism
Politics
Vonnegut
Religion
Philosophy

EDIT -- But if you just HAVE to be a jerk today, whoever you are, you might consider the tag "Delusional - Democrat". Ideally I'd like to see every thread at this site get tagged "Delusional - Democrat."

1 Reply

@Kolyo,

Delusional - Democrat = Republican

But with political math the reverse is also true.

Delusional - Republican = Democrat

And so it goes.

But don't forget everyone has one of these -

*

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@boomerang,

Interesting that you should reverse the obvious truth that (all) RELIGION is a kind of optimism (i.e., the assumption that death is not the end) into the question of whether or not all OPTIMISM is a kind of (perhaps secular or non-theistic) "religion".

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@boomerang,

Perhaps I'm a "lazy atheist" in the sense that I simply turn away when the issue of theism is raised*. It makes no sense to me. An energetic or religious atheist I am not: I do not believe in a NoGod and worship Him.

* But I am not lazy: I've meditated virtually EVERY day for 35 years, and I have a long record of academic study.**
**I'm not claiming that the results of both efforts have been as good as
I expected.

1 Reply

@boomerang,

As you said earlier is wrong, based on the criteria you have established.

Quote:

a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith

To be an agnostic is a claim of belief that nothing can (or does to date) tell for or against that belief (such as gods or God, and the future life with which other religions are concerned) in a reasonable manner.

1 Reply

@Ice Demon,

Maybe, but I don't think so.

Agnostics make no claim either way so it clearly isn't a "system of beliefs", or any kind of belief at all.

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@boomerang,

The objection I've always expressed to Frank Apisa, A2K's most enthusiastic agnotics, is that I cannot bring myself to assume the evidence, or lack of evidence, is equal on both sides of the issue of a god's existence. My general experience is overwhelmingly consistent with the atheistic position; none of it supports that of theism. Ergo, I cannot sit on the agnostic fence. Yet, I stress, I do not consider myself an ideological atheist.

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@JLNobody,

Quote:

My general experience overwhelmingly supports the atheistic position; none of it supports that of atheism.

JL I think there's a typo

1 Reply

@dalehileman,

Thanks, Dale. I corrected it ("atheism" changed to "theism").
By the way, my major objection to the popular atheists, like Dawkins, is their essentially fundamentalist stance.

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@JLNobody,

I much prefer the lazy middle ground on either side of agnosticism. The extremist of both sides give me a headache.

And by "lazy" I don't mean without energy, I mean that they've given up trying to convince the other side that they're wrong.

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@JLNobody,

I guess I'm pretty comfortable on the fence on this issue (and others). I find both arguments compelling.

I've been doing some reading today about neurotheology. Since you meditate you might find this article interesting: http://www.npr.org/2010/12/15/132078267/neurotheology-where-religion-and-science-collide

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@boomerang,

And visa-versa. Mr. Green

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Boomer, I've been giving your premise some thought. And I have to agree. A couple of years ago there was a book called the secret, I think. And before that a south american mystic dude who talked to plants, the steps.. I dunno, I got half way through it before a general malaise fell over me.
Regardless, I have a few friends who eat this **** up. They're the kind of people who send other people facebook crap that you're supposed to pass on for fear of death or horrible luck or man eating dragons and what not.
One friend in particular has read every Sylvia Brown book on the planet, and keeps them on a bookcase like treasured leather bound books. Self-help books too, scads of them, and she pushes them on me like a deranged JW.

1 Reply

@boomerang,

boomerang wrote:

As I'm reading I start realizing that "And so it goes" is sort of like a little prayer he says whenever someone dies. I'm reminded of how a Muslim would say "Peace be upon Him" whenever Muhammad, and anyone deserving respect, is mentioned.

So I start wondering whether optimism is really kind of a religion and I'm thinking maybe it is.

This may be a bit off point, but i have to admit that i have never interpreted "So it goes" as an optimist mantra. I've always read it as statement of resignation. It's always seemed to me that one of the key themes of Slaughterhouse Five is the unresolvable ambiguity of our existential situation, re: freedom v. historically enmeshed.

As to the question of whether optimism is a kind of religion -- i don't think so. Optimism, as a phenomenon, seems more like a generalized, abstract feeling or attitude, rather than a doctrine, or practice, or even faith. But perhaps the question could be profitably reversed: Do successful religions seek to express a kind of optimism?

1 Reply

@boomerang,

Damn, this thread is moving faster than i anticipated -- the point regarding the relationship between optimism and religion goes to JLN.

@JLNobody

JLNobody wrote:

Perhaps I'm a "lazy atheist" in the sense that I simply turn away when the issue of theism is raised*. It makes no sense to me. An energetic or religious atheist I am not: I do not believe in a NoGod and worship Him.

* But I am not lazy: I've meditated virtually EVERY day for 35 years, and I have a long record of academic study.**
**I'm not claiming that the results of both efforts have been as good as
I expected.

JLNobody wrote:

The objection I've always expressed to Frank Apisa, A2K's most enthusiastic agnotics, is that I cannot bring myself to assume the evidence, or lack of evidence, is equal on both sides of the issue of a god's existence. My general experience is overwhelmingly consistent with the atheistic position; none of it supports that of theism. Ergo, I cannot sit on the agnostic fence. Yet, I stress, I do not consider myself an ideological atheist.

i appreciate the nuance of your response, and i tend to agree with you. i don't recall whether you are familiar with Spinoza or not, but i tend to regard myself as a "negative pantheist". i "believe" in the interconnectedness of all things while having no faith in the absolute, and, at the same time, i look to science and philosophy to build the case for this interconnectedness from the ground up.

i also meditate, practicing zazen, and re: intellectual matters i tend to employ a sort of eclectic pragmatism/pluralism. But i do so with the assumption that it is bound to fail as a consequence of transiency-- i call it "impragmatism". i think of it as a sort of perspectivist epistemology and faithless faith.

2 Replies

And so it goes.

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