Iraq Reconsidered

This started off as a comment of the behaviour of the American media in the run up to the war. You decided to turn it into some tit for tat bullshit.

No--you must have a persecution complex. My post was in response to Walter's comment.

My post was in response to this post of Walter's.

This from the guy who tries to make the immense war crimes that was the US invasion of Vietnam look like the grandest liberation. And he can't even seem to grasp just what an incredible hypocrite he is.

Beth, you really are going to have to sit this boy down someday and have a talk with him.

I don't see it as a lower form. I see it as the only form. It's a matter of what you recognize and what you don't. I don't think the U.S. is any worse than many of the other developed nations. Actually, if we don't have people like the neo-cons and Bush et al in control, I don't think the U.S. does that bad. It comes down to judgement about who gets hurt the most and least and how. As far as I can tell.

Over 200 times we [the USA] have put our forces into other countries to force them to our will. - John Stockwell

It matters not at all even if you could point to a country that is worse, Lola. The vicious war crimes of the US are what is at issue. The ongoing relentless terrorism that the US engages in is at issue.



You don't know the history of the US very well.

When other people/countries do these things, the US is the first one to the podium preaching and demanding that the war criminals, the terrorists be held to account.

Why shouldn't the US war criminals and terrorists be held to account?

Ten Years After!!!

WTF has this got to do with some defunct UK rock band?

I am somewhere between 3 and 4.
I think it was a good idea, I supported it, but I wish it had turned out better than it did.
I was there, and I saw first hand the good that was accomplished, as well as the bad things that happened.

I truly wish it had turned out better than it did, but I still think it was worth the effort.

You don't actually know what I know and what I don't. You're simply expressing your opinion of my opinion. There's no need to claim factual knowledge when expressing your opinion. I do believe George Bush and especially Dick Cheney, et al should be prosecuted as war criminals. But each situation should be judged based on what we're able to know about it. Making generalizations like yours about the U.S. are overly simplistic.

And Obama has continued those war crimes and let the past war criminals off the hook.

Would you [singular 'you' ->Lola] care to take a stroll back in time to point up the other US war criminal administrations?

Let's not let Tony Blair off the hook either.

I remember the days of the "Freedom Fries" and the Dixie Chicks and Colen Powells speech to the UN. I remember Dick Cheney and his great statement that'
"Anyone whoise against the Iraqi War is AFreedom Hater" or"Why do you want the enemy to win"? This is about the same rhetorical crap that is today being dug up, repackaged an freshly used by the gu n nuts to peddle their worldview onto the majority of the country. I hope this time we dont buy it.

AS one who came to despise our role in Iraq later than many, I feel particularly enraged and I felt particularly lied to. It was obvious in retrospect that This country had decided to go to War early in 2002 and spent the rest of the year trying to convince the stupidus public (I was one of the early supporters of Bush and Cheneys evil plot).

Many of us sucked it up initially.
Our moment of post 9/11 "triumph" has been analyzed to death and now weve gotten a two part decision tree. Those who see this as an evil insertion into a sovereign nations affairs, which was based entirely upon deceit and fraud. Thast one way, then there is the milder, more post neocon view, that we were merely the victims of "faulty intelligence".
When our own intelligence arm was , from the getgo, doubting the "Yellowcake' recipe and ingredients list, and when it became obvious that the decision for war preceeded ANY evidence for engaging, how can anyone believe that we proceeded only on a basis of bad information but good intentions.

Where are the neocons today and why havent we made any moves to try to seek relief by trying the perpetrators in an open court.

I guess, of course , that will never happen. It wont happen because everyone is in cahoots, I think it wont happen because even those on the good side will fear ultimate retributions down the road of foreign policy .

Im actually glad that Finn posted this, its given me a chance to virtually "take a shower" and admit that I was one who was duped by not realizing that we could easily be lied to while we trusted our government, and when i finally "Got it", Ive become a lot more awake to the policies and politics of the nation and my state, and a lot more unforgiving of evil those policies.

You hit the nail on the head. Excellent post!

You feel "particularly enraged and ... particularly lied to" by this one event? It is/was no different than every "event" that has ever occurred in the history of the US and you know that, Farmer. Hence your disingenuous nature makes your pleadings here seem rather fatuous.

You are the one, Farmerman, who wrote here in the pages of A2K, [and I believe it was after you came to the "big realization"] that it was "my country right or wrong".

You are taking the term "nation building" too literally. Intentionally, I'm sure. I assure you Walter that even stupid Americans know there was a German nation before WWII.

If you would prefer, you can call it "nation rebuilding."

American success with post-WWII nation building in Germany doesn't imply an American model was used, and if it makes you feel better, I will be happy to concede the effort wasn't 100% American.

Call it the Allies Effort, it sure worked a lot better for the Germans than the Soviet Effort.

So typical of you Pooch.

Hasn't that always been the case, Set?

You were directly involved in Vietnam and to this day you still don't know just how easily you were hoodwinked.

How unlike you, Finn, to avoid the real stuff in favor of the fluff.



Where's your much screamed about sense of personal responsibility? Doesn't that extend to your "leaders"?

Why are you, a self described moral person, not concerned about all the Iraqis that have been killed, have had their lives destroyed, their loved ones torn from them, their property destroyed, their country destroyed?

I'd thought, the Soviet Union was part of the Allied Nations as well ...


Area, total population and population per km² for Berlin, the American, British, French and Russian Zone.

Don't bother Finn with mere details, Walter, he's always got his eye on the big picture . . . you know, like Faux News?