11
   

Chávez Dies, Leaving Venezuela a Divided Nation

 
 
JTT
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 6 Mar, 2013 08:00 pm
@Lola,
Quote:
I wonder how Cuba will get along


Cuba would get along fine if it didn't have/hadn't had the mighty US committing acts of terrorism against it for the last 50 years.
0 Replies
 
panzade
 
  3  
Reply Wed 6 Mar, 2013 08:11 pm
Chavez never forgave Dubya for supporting the right wing coup that almost toppled him. And he never forgave the U.S.

Unfortunately all his huffing and puffing diverted him from his plan to rebuild Venezuela.
How different was the work of Lula, the socialist leader of Brazil who catapulted his country into an economic power.

In the end Chavez eviscerated the middle class and left a sea of homeless people invading empty office buildings.
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 Mar, 2013 08:37 pm
@panzade,
Ther's no evidence for the proposition that Chavez had an unrevealed or unexecuted plan to rebuild Venezuela, or that having one he was somehow diverted by a U.S. preference for his democratic opposition. He had plenty of time to implement all he ever planned and the effects he brought on Venezuela's economy and cultural solidarity were very bad. Venezuelans (those who haven't left) will have to deal with them for a long time.

Chavez aquired power in a coup and held it in rigged elections.

The economic rebirth of Brazil occurred during the terms of Lula's two fairly conservative predecessors as President of Brasil. Seven decades of near continuous double digit inflation were tamed, public debt and payrolls were vastly reduced and the seeds for private sector economic growth sown and cultivated. Lula was wise enough to defy the expectations of his supporters and retain those policies, enabling him to preside over the boom they started.
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 Mar, 2013 08:50 pm
@panzade,
Quote:
Chavez never forgave Dubya for supporting the right wing coup that almost toppled him. And he never forgave the U.S.


You make it sound like he should have, Pan. Wouldn't you think that he would have been completely justified in launching the same degree of terrorist activities against the US as the US had done, is still doing to Venezuela and numerous other countries.

Quote:

Hugo Chávez kept his promise to the people of Venezuela

The late Venezuelan president's Bolívarian revolution has been crucial to a wider Latin American philosophy

...

The facts speak for themselves: the percentage of households in poverty fell from 55% in 1995 to 26.4% in 2009. When Chávez was sworn into office unemployment was 15%, in June 2009 it was 7.8%.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/mar/05/hugo-chavez-people-venezuelan-president


Quote:
Unfortunately all his huffing and puffing diverted him from his plan to rebuild Venezuela.


It's a tough job but someone's got to do it. Lord knows that the very people who should be talking about it, should be demanding these terrorist actions stop, are doing nothing at all or very little. Guess who these people are, Pan.

Denouncing a century of US brutality, US thievery, US domination of the sovereign rights of others is hardly huffing and puffing.

Quote:
Nicaragua is one of Venezuela's allies in Alba, the organisation constituted at Chávez's initiative to counter neoliberalism in the region, alongside Cuba, Ecuador and Bolivia. It has now acquired a life of its own having invited a number of Caribbean countries and Mexico to join, with Vietnam as an observer. It will be a most enduring legacy, a concrete embodiment of Chávez's words and historical vision. The Bolívarian revolution has been crucial to the wider philosophy shared and applied by many Latin American governments. Its aim is to overcome global problems through local and regional interventions by engaging with democracy and the state in order to transform the relation between these and the people, rather than withdrawing from the state or trying to destroy it.

Ibid.



ALBA - Bolivarian Alliance for the Americas

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bolivarian_Alliance_for_the_Americas
panzade
 
  3  
Reply Wed 6 Mar, 2013 09:46 pm
@JTT,
Quote:
You make it sound like he should have, Pan.


No JTT, I was just making an observation.
Lola
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 Mar, 2013 09:49 pm
@fbaezer,
Quote:
and, most importantly, democracy has faltered not only in the institutions, but in the culture of the people.


Faltering democracy is a problem, a big one.
0 Replies
 
panzade
 
  4  
Reply Wed 6 Mar, 2013 09:55 pm
@georgeob1,
Quote:
Lula was wise enough to defy the expectations of his supporters and retain those policies, enabling him to preside over the boom they started.


Nevertheless, my comparison was an apt one.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 Mar, 2013 10:54 pm
@panzade,
Perhaps so. However Lula's economic success had very little to do with his former socialism. On the contrary the success occurred in spite of it. At least that's what I hear from my many Brazilian friends.
0 Replies
 
eurocelticyankee
 
  3  
Reply Thu 7 Mar, 2013 10:10 am
@Lustig Andrei,
They are few and far between the nations of this Earth that are not divided in one way or another including my own and yours.
0 Replies
 
Baldimo
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Mar, 2013 12:57 pm
@panzade,
The US tried to overthrow Chavez?
panzade
 
  2  
Reply Thu 7 Mar, 2013 05:20 pm
@Baldimo,
Quote:
The US tried to overthrow Chavez?


Not exactly, but Chavez didn't trust the US afterwards

from wiki
Quote:
The coup was publicly condemned by leaders of Latin American nations (the Rio Group then gathered in San José, Costa Rica at the time) who issued a joint communiqué to that effect.

On the other hand, the United States and Spain both rushed to acknowledge the (pro-US) Carmona forces as the de facto government, but ended up choosing to condemn the coup once it became clear the plotters had been unsuccessful.
JTT
 
  -1  
Reply Thu 7 Mar, 2013 08:37 pm
@Baldimo,
Quote:
The US tried to overthrow Chavez?


You're an ignorant doofus, Baldimo, just one of many.


Quote:
1) American Navy 'Helped Venezuelan Coup'
by Duncan Campbell in Los Angeles
The Guardian [UK]; April 29, 2002

The United States had been considering a coup to overthrow the elected Venezuelan president, Hugo Chavez, since last June, a former US intelligence officer claimed yesterday.

It is also alleged that the US navy aided the abortive coup which took place in Venezuela on April 11 with intelligence from its vessels in the Caribbean. Evidence is also emerging of US financial backing for key participants in the coup.

Both sides in Venezuela have blamed the other for the violence surrounding the coup.

Wayne Madsen, a former intelligence officer with the US navy, told the Guardian yesterday that American military attaches had been in touch with members of the Venezuelan military to examine the possibility of a coup.

"I first heard of Lieutenant Colonel James Rogers [the assistant military attaché now based at the US embassy in Caracas] going down there last June to set the ground," Mr Madsen, an intelligence analyst, said yesterday. "Some of our counter-narcotics agents were also involved."

He said that the navy was in the area for operations unconnected to the coup, but that he understood they had assisted with signals intelligence as the coup was played out.

Mr Madsen also said that the navy helped with communications jamming support to the Venezuelan military, focusing on communications to and from the diplomatic missions in Caracas belonging to Cuba, Libya, Iran and Iraq - the four countries which had expressed support for Mr Chavez.

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/South_America/US_Coup_Venezuela.html



Quote:
2) Washington channelled funds to groups that opposed Chavez
By Christopher Marquis in Washington
Sydney Morning Herald; April 26, 2002

In the past year the United States channelled hundreds of thousands of dollars to bodies opposed to the Venezuelan President, Hugo Chavez, including the labour group whose protests led to his brief removal this month.

The funds were provided by the National Endowment for Democracy, a non-profit agency created and financed by Congress. As conditions deteriorated in Venezuela and Mr Chavez clashed with various business, union and media groups, the endowment quadrupled its budget for the country to more than $US877,000 ($1.6million).

Ibid.


Terrorism plain and simple.

Quote:
Venezuela coup linked to Bush team Specialists in the 'dirty wars' of the Eighties encouraged the plotters who tried to topple President Chavez
by Ed Vulliamy in New York
The Observer; April 21, 2002

The failed coup in Venezuela was closely tied to senior officials in the US government, The Observer has established. They have long histories in the 'dirty wars' of the 1980s, and links to death squads working in Central America at that time.

Washington's involvement in the turbulent events that briefly removed left-wing leader Hugo Chavez from power last weekend resurrects fears about US ambitions in the hemisphere.

It also also deepens doubts about policy in the region being made by appointees to the Bush administration, all of whom owe their careers to serving in the dirty wars under President Reagan.

One of them, Elliot Abrams, who gave a nod to the attempted Venezuelan coup, has a conviction for misleading Congress over the infamous Iran-Contra affair.

The Bush administration has tried to distance itself from the coup. It immediately endorsed the new government under businessman Pedro Carmona. But the coup was sent dramatically into reverse after 48 hours.

Ibid.


JTT
 
  0  
Reply Thu 7 Mar, 2013 08:55 pm
@Lustig Andrei,
I wonder where Merry Andrew could be.

When you say you were a newspaper man, Merry, did that mean that you were in charge of the obituaries?



Quote:
US Pushing for a Coup d'Etat

by Maximilien Arvelaiz & Temir Porras Ponceleon

CovertAction Quarterly, Spring 2002


President Bush's statement in the wake of 911 that "either you are with us, or you are with the terrorists" is clear: From now on, those who are not "100% with the USA" may be branded as terrorists. Until recently, only the so-called rogue states had been threatened by the Bush administration, but now, a traditional ally, with a democratically elected government, has also become a target.

On February 5, Secretary of State Colin Powell, questioned by Senator Jesse Helms, expressed unhappiness with Hugo Chavez. He was distressed by the fact that the Venezuelan president was being less than fully supportive of the anti-terrorism campaign. Powell also questioned, without elaborating, Chavez's "understanding of what the democratic system is all about.''

The following day, George Tenet, director of the CIA, followed up on Powell's statement, commenting on "the growing internal opposition to President Chavez," and predicted that, due to the fall of oil prices, oil being Venezuela's main source of income, the "crisis atmosphere is likely to worsen." Needless to say, this sort of comment could hardly ease the "crisis atmosphere." At no other time since the beginning of the Bolivarian Revolution in 1998, had US officials intervened so abruptly in Venezuelan affairs. Yet they did so at a time when the political situation in Venezuela was particularly tense. Washington's warnings took on the appearance of self-fulfilling prophecies: During the following week, the massive flight of capital (US $100 million per day) forced the Venezuelan government to take emergency economic measures.

Following a period of steady deterioration, US-Venezuelan bilateral relations seem to have reached a point of no return. Back in the Clinton days, the US government had adopted a "wait and see" policy toward President Chavez, and tolerated some uncolonial behavior from the former paratrooper (e.g, visiting Iraq, establishing close links with Cuba). They didn't really have much choice. When Chavez took office, he found a country exhausted by ten years of social unrest and permanent political crisis. After several decades of ruthless corruption and the political class's inability to respond to basic social needs, the Venezuelan population unanimously rejected a regime that was once considered a model of democracy. Given that Venezuela is one of the US's main oil providers, and that it contains among the world's largest proven oil reserves outside of the Middle East, the Chavez solution, as long as it could bring stability to the country, was not considered by Washington to be the worst possible scenario.

Additionally, from the beginning of the 1990s, Latin America had ceased to be a priority for the USA. The historical hegemonic influence of the US in Latin America took on a new form: the promotion of Bill Clinton's "market democracy," i.e., elected governments as long as they guarantee that markets remain open to free trade, and that US interests remain untouched. Thanks to the retreat of traditional opponents, this policy was not difficult to implement. After the fall of the Berlin wall, most of the left-wing parties in Latin America were easily co-opted to neoliberal ideas. Meanwhile, the guerrilla movements, with the notable exception of the FARC and the ELN in Colombia, seemed to have run into a dead end.

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/South_America/Pushing_For_Coup.html

Lustig Andrei
 
  2  
Reply Thu 7 Mar, 2013 09:02 pm
@JTT,
JTT wrote:
When you say you were a newspaper man, Merry, did that mean that you were in charge of the obituaries?


From time to time, yes. What's your point?
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Mar, 2013 09:03 pm
@Lustig Andrei,
I'll bet you did all the Obit Editorials, Merry.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  0  
Reply Thu 7 Mar, 2013 09:15 pm
@panzade,
I doubt that Chavez ever trusted the United States to support his aims either before or after these events. The failed coup that threatened Chavez was no different from one he tried 14 years ago, which landed him in prision, or the successful one a few years later that put him in power.

Now the cult of the dead Chavez will hang like a millstone around the necks of Venezuelans, perhaps in a way similar to that of the former cult of general Peron in Argentina - a myth that even today still poisions economic and political development in Argentina.

Chavez did nothing to stimulate economic development or economic mobility among the Venezuelan people. Indeed the country is economically far worse off than it was when he took power over a decade ago. All he accomplished was the forced transfer of government and private sector wealth to selected constituents among the country's poor, making them a standing reserve of controllable public power for him. They and the Army from which he came preserved his authoritarian rule. None of it will have any lasting economic benefit. The ability of the Venezuelan beneficiaries to sustain an improved economic status is dim to say the least, and the declining performance of the economy and their oil production together means their future leaders will have less with which to buy their support.

It will be interesting to see how the leadership transfer proceeds in Venezuela and also to observe the role of Cuba in that process as Fidel & Raul struggle to preserve the $300 billion or so they have been getting from their now departed acolyte.
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Mar, 2013 09:20 pm
@georgeob1,
Say, Gob, when is the military going to give back that which you surrendered at enlistment?
0 Replies
 
panzade
 
  2  
Reply Thu 7 Mar, 2013 10:09 pm
@georgeob1,
Jon Lee Anderson's article in the New Yorker magazine pretty much agrees with your assessment.
RABEL222
 
  2  
Reply Thu 7 Mar, 2013 11:15 pm
The Venezuelians have it better than when there was a military dictatorship and the Cubans have it better than when the mafia controlled Cuba. If our politicians would have just left them alone after the changes and just traded with them we would have all been better off.
JTT
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 8 Mar, 2013 10:57 am
@panzade,
Quote:
Jon Lee Anderson's article in the New Yorker ...


Jon Lee, Jon schmee, Pan. Here's a guy who really knows what's been going on.

Quote:
The Venezuelians have it better than when there was a military dictatorship and the Cubans have it better than when the mafia controlled Cuba. If our politicians would have just left them alone after the changes and just traded with them we would have all been better off.
0 Replies
 
 

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