A question for people who believe in Moral Absolutes

@JLNobody,

JLNobody wrote:

Set, I too have always been underwhelmed by much of the culture of Tibetan Buddhism. It has what I see as a strong superstition component and its theocratic character is, to me, undesireable. But capitalism is far worse despite its strengths.
With regard to Buddhism as a psycho-spiritual-philosophical approach to our existential situation I'm sorry that you totally fail to see what it has to offer. Sorry for your sake, not Buddhism's.

JL, I have nothing to say that won't be ignored or vilified by others.... so I'll say nothing more...

1 Reply

@Fil Albuquerque,

Fil, I may be missing out on some of Buddhism's offerings, but very frankly I am only interested in its practice of meditation (zazen) because that results--in varying degrees depending I suppose on the talent of the meditator--in a mind-set open to what some Christians call "grace" and others "enlightenment." This "grace" is not intellectual in nature and cannot therefore be taught discursively; it is only through meditation and some of its equivalents (like mindful watching) can this occur.
By the way, religion and capitalism do have one technique in common: mystification. Zen tries to liberate us from all our cultural mystifications.

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@JLNobody,

Ah-hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha . . .

Ha-hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha . . .

Woooo . . . .

Thanks, Boss . . .

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@Setanta,

Thanks, that was edifying.

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@igm,

No, please continue. Some of us find your thinking very helpful and stimulating.

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@JLNobody,

You're welcome, you inveterate joker . . .

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@JLNobody,

My point regarding upaya is something along the lines of this:

Let us grant you that compassionate practice assists in "enlightenment".
I suspect you will rail against the accusation of having motivations, but it seems that zen certainly places a de facto preference on "enlightenment". From the zen perspective it seems that if one were truly compassionate, one would make conditions better on "the ground", for the rest of the poor and huddled masses (if for no other reason than to predispose them to a greater chance of "enlightenment").
This of course also makes zen a "religion" of the "enlightened" elite.
Should I assume that my developmentally disabled brother has no hope for the "enlightened" escape from suffering that you enjoy?
I think that if you are going to mention Beyond Good and Evil. The topic deserves a little more exposition, because the common perception is going to be that "for there is nothing either good or
bad, but thinking makes it so".

So I disagree with your non-use of upaya in this discussion of moral philosophy.

I don't think you are being helpful in the moral development of your audience.

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@Setanta,

Quote:

Be specific, please--vague bromides about the excellence of Buddhism is precisely what i am criticizing, and the basis of the hypocrisy which makes me despise them.

It seems to me that what you despise is ignorance. That is just as prevalent in those who follow the path of Buddha as in anyone else.

My point about western exploitation was simply that on a global scale, even with all the charities various christian sects and faiths contribute with, the ill effects of Christianity still far outweigh those of Buddhism. The hypocrisy you accuse Buddhists of pales in comparison to the hypocrisy of most other religions.

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@Cyracuz,

I see . . . so you are saying that economic exploitation is a tenet of Christianity, and that capitalists are simply putting their religious creed into practice? I'd love to see you defend that one.

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@Setanta,

No, I am not saying that. I am saying that these good Christians who are so charitable are the same people who benefit from this economic exploitation, thereby establishing themselves as experts of hypocrisy.

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@Cyracuz,

Should we judged a belief system on it's effectiveness to bring about social change or not? (not rhetorical)
I simply call into question the effectiveness of zen Buddhist "intellectual" apologists to nihilism. I don't see that as morally helpful.

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@MattDavis,

I don't know if I fully grasp what you are asking here, and if my reply is off, please don't hesitate to inform me.
But the way I see it, the practice of zen is something personal and private. It is about how well you learn from your experience. Someone with a "zen mindset" will learn a lot more from any given experience than someone who doesn't think that they can improve at all. I meet people in the latter category every day, and what gives them away is that no matter what goes wrong, their first impulse is to find the cause for it outside of themselves, never even considering that the problem might be within them. A zen oriented mind will keep both these possibilities open and consider them both.

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@Cyracuz,

Quote:

But the way I see it, the practice of zen is something personal and private.

I agree with that assessment. I just have little patience for zen Buddhism when it is used as a defense of amorality (in a public setting), discussing social issues. Getting at the "engaged" Buddhism topic a bit. There is such a thing as responsible engagement.

[not a personal accusation, a social critique] Very Happy

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Is this becoming a Buddhism is good or bad thread ? Hope not...

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@MattDavis,

Quote:

I just have little patience for zen Buddhism when it is used as a defense of amorality (in a public setting), discussing social issues.

Would you mind giving an example of this? I'd have to agree with you, of course, since defending amorality is just bad zen. If you do, you end up with adversaries, or perhaps even enemies. That's grief you can avoid. You end up with a mindset that allows you to make choices that are harmful to yourself, which is also bad zen. The whole point of zen, as I see it, is to identify the sources of pain and suffering in your life, and to understand the thought patterns and choices involved in the process that leads you to thinking that life sucks.
Zen is just learning from experience. Have you noticed how we humans have a tendency to resist doing just that?

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@Fil Albuquerque,

Fil wrote:

Is this becoming a Buddhism is good or bad thread ? Hope not...

No. That is not my intention. My perception of this thread was a debate for or against moral relativism. The most intellectually advanced moral relativists defend their case with zen Buddhism, and zen Buddhists (in my opinion) seem happy to oblige.
My opinion is that morality is transcendent, not relative.
I think that nihilism, as it has been defended here, is disingenuous to Buddhist teachings.
I hold no qualms about holding anyone's feet to the fire.
The sociological reality is that adding the [Buddhist stamp of approval] to nihilism confers on it a credibility that it would not otherwise have.

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@Cyracuz,

Cyracuz wrote:

Have you noticed how we humans have a tendency to resist doing just that?

Of course it is true that human beliefs have an inertia. That does no excuse a lack of application of influence, nor that humans should simply be untethered from concern. Buddhist teachings are not to nullify morality, they are meant to transcend ego. To have interest (eventually) in the totality. You don't get to skip steps. You don't transcend tribalism by assuring the tribe-members that there is no such thing as "right" or "wrong" (that only the various tribes get to decide that). That is a moral regression, not moral advancement.

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It makes me smile when I hear people finding fault in Buddhism when they haven't gone to the trouble to 'find out' what the Buddha taught and why Smile

They've understood 'something' but then jumped to conclusions (which are plain wrong... ultimately).

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@igm,

It makes me sad when people call themselves "Buddhists", when they don't understand the teachings of their religion(s), or of the wisdom traditions that support them.

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@igm,

Quote:

It makes me smile when I hear people finding fault in Buddhism...

Don't know about these other guys, but I do not find anywhere near as much fault with Buddhism...

...as I do with Buddhists.

2 Replies

A question for people who believe in Moral Absolutes

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