A question for people who believe in Moral Absolutes

@maxdancona,

You seem hopelessly entrenched in your nihilism.
Do you find value in anything?
That would be the starting place to develop morality.

2 Replies

@MattDavis,

Quote:

You seem hopelessly entrenched in your nihilism.
Do you find value in anything?
That would be the starting place to develop morality.

Are you planning another escape, Matt?

1 Reply

@JTT,

JTT, I find value in the human capacity to value. To me a value's value lies not in its inherent worth or its universality; it lies simply in its value for the people who have formulated it.

2 Replies

@JLNobody,

So then potential becomes a sort of value?

0 Replies

@MattDavis,

There no need for personal attacks Matt.

I am not a nihilist. I have a deeply rooted morality that works great for me (as it does for you) so I don't need to "develop morality". And, I find value in quite a bit.

There is no practical difference between my sense of morality and yours. We almost certainly have very similar views of right and wrong and very similar standards of behavior.

There only difference here is a very abstract question... whether one can say that any part of their morality is part of a "universal morality". But since have the same culture, the same upbringing and we have the same thoughts on the matter this is only a question when we consider other systems of morality.

Outside of this theoretical question, in every practical way my morality and yours is pretty near identical.

1 Reply

@maxdancona,

I am very sorry if what I said came off as a personal attack.
I just can't see from your position where you have an inherent value.
If you do please share that. Morality depends on value.

1 Reply

@JLNobody,

That's fair enough, JL, but why are you telling me that?

1 Reply

@MattDavis,

I have values-- I value human life, and liberty and equality and justice... these are the same values you have, right? And and being of the same culture I undoubtedly share almost all of your moral convictions.

Why do you think I have to have faith in some universal truth that I can't see, or experience or question in order to have values?

My values come from who I am as a person. I can hold to my own values without insisting they are the only possible values.

2 Replies

@maxdancona,

So then those values you hold are not inherent values.
My understanding has been that you do not accept any values as inherent (by virtue of existence).
Do you feel that human life is a universal good?

2 Replies

@MattDavis,

There is no objectively testable reason to say that human life is good.

There is nothing in the Universe outside of humans themselves (and possibly dogs) that give any value to human life.

Humans occupy a speck of dust orbiting a puny star in a rather unimpressive galaxy among hundreds of billions of galaxies in the Universe. Nature doesn't care about humans, as we are dying all of the time from viruses and volcanoes. As a species we can be wiped out in an instant by any number of things, and we have gotten lucky (but we haven't been that lucky since humans have been only around for a very short time),

But that is really irrelevant to the question of morals.

I value human live, just as you do. That is why my morals are much the same as your morals.

1 Reply

@MattDavis,

Do you feel that honesty is a universal good, Matt?

0 Replies

@maxdancona,

Quote:

There is no objectively testable reason to say that human life is good.

Then what is the point of calling your position cultural or social moral relativity?
If there is no objective reason to think that the organisms which are human have value, where do you suddenly come up with enough value to call their interactions "morality"?
You are simply labeling types of behavior, there is no objective way (by your reasoning) to categorize some behaviors as moral ones, some as immoral ones, or others as amoral ones. The organism is arbitrary, the behavior is arbitrary.
You can't call something morality when it is arbitrary. That is not the definition of morality.
Morality is not botany.

1 Reply

@JTT,

JTT, I don't recall. Something you said, I guess, stimulated it.

Also, I don't consider honesty (with others) to be a universal good. For example, if Nazis were chasing a jew and asked me which way he went, I would certainly be dishonest with them. And that would be--according to me--good.

1 Reply

@JLNobody,

Quote:

JTT, I don't recall. Something you said, I guess, stimulated it.

What killed it, JL? I guess you got the PM.

Quote:

Also, I don't consider honesty (with others) to be a universal good. For example, if Nazis were chasing a jew and asked me which way he went, I would certainly be dishonest with them. And that would be--according to me--good.

I wasn't talking about such momentous event, JL. What I addressed to Matt was more a mundane exhibition of dishonesty.

0 Replies

@MattDavis,

MattDavis wrote:

Quote:
There is no objectively testable reason to say that human life is good.
Then what is the point of calling your position cultural or social moral relativity?
If there is no objective reason to think that the organisms which are human have value, where do you suddenly come up with enough value to call their interactions "morality"?
You are simply labeling types of behavior, there is no objective way (by your reasoning) to categorize some behaviors as moral ones, some as immoral ones, or others as amoral ones. The organism is arbitrary, the behavior is arbitrary.
You can't call something morality when it is arbitrary. That is not the definition of morality.
Morality is not botany.

Matt,

You are missing the point. My morality is almost exactly like your morality. I have the same values you do, the same idea of right and wrong and the same standards of behavior.

Saying that just because I don't accept this one theoretical point "I am not moral and you are" is ludicrous, particularly when our moral codes are so similar.

2 Replies

@maxdancona,

Quote:

Saying that just because I don't accept this one theoretical point "I am not moral and you are" is ludicrous, particularly when our moral codes are so similar.

Max,
I never said or implied that. As you know we are discussing morality, not the specific merits of either of our actions (by whatever standard you wish to judge them).
I am quite confident that you are a virtuous person.

That is not the topic under discussion, the topic under discussion (I think) is:

Whether culturally/socially relative morality is morality.
-or conversely-
Whether morality exists.

1 Reply

@MattDavis,

Yes, and universally existent, but not universally binding
&
Yes, seeing that there are an internal, subjective ideas of what's right and wrong in everyone.

Moral truths existing would mean that there is no need for the teaching of moral codes from a young age, however that is not the case, and morality must be taught. Without a replete lesson, individuals tend to not understand the reasoning behind the lesson and will not comprehend why a choice is moral or immoral. A classic example would be feral children who are much less likely to have a well formed moral codes, let alone be mentally fit. One could not argue over morality if moral codes were truths, however; since they are not truths at all, they can argued.
What's more to discuss?

1 Reply

@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

My morality is almost exactly like your morality.

I very much doubt that.

0 Replies

@Ice Demon,

Ice Demon wrote:

Moral truths existing would mean that there is no need for the teaching of moral codes from a young age, however that is not the case, and morality must be taught.

So does algebra.

Ice Demon wrote:

A classic example would be feral children who are much less likely to have a well formed moral codes, let alone be mentally fit.

And they're not very good at algebra either.

Ice Demon wrote:

One could not argue over morality if moral codes were truths, however; since they are not truths at all, they can argued.

Unanimity on a point doesn't make it true. Dispute on a point doesn't make it false.

1 Reply

@joefromchicago,

False analogy, don't cha think?

1 Reply

A question for people who believe in Moral Absolutes

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