7
   

Religious Objector Quits Academy: Army Wants Recoupment

 
 
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Sun 17 Feb, 2013 06:27 pm
@engineer,
Quote:
I salute him for that and personally I think he is completely sincere but that doesn't give him a free pass.


He doesn't get a free pass for being an individual who wants the rule of law followed but thousands, tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands [??] of military personnel, not to mention the CICs, have been given free passes for vicious war crimes and untold incidences of terrorism.

What's wrong with this picture?
0 Replies
 
Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 Feb, 2013 04:15 pm
@engineer,
It could be that the proselytizing got worse, or more unbearable to him. Due to the very serious violations of the constitution, at a minimum, the contract should be deemed voidable.
engineer
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 Feb, 2013 07:25 am
@Advocate,
Could be things have gotten worse but he wrote the opposite, that things have recently improved but not enough.
Quote:
While dealing with the bureaucracy of the academy I have had my complaints ignored by several members of my direct military chain of command. The ranking chaplain here responded to some of these instances of clear prejudice with the useless statement that he will "do what [he] can in good conscience" (which was nothing) instead of fulfilling his legal obligations. In dealing with the Directorate of Cadet Activities I have seen the Secular Student Alliance denied recognition for two years because the former director of the organization did not see a reason to recognize an organization for support of nonreligious West Point cadets. Even after finally receiving hard-fought recognition this year, that same organization continues to work with us only half-heartedly. They have only begrudgingly given us a pitifully inadequate budget, continue to refuse to list us on their website, and one of their staff has openly laughed at the idea that we could organize a conference or even produce club t-shirts for our members.

In response to this utter nonsense, and much more, I initiated an Equal Opportunity investigation earlier this semester. I have received nothing but positive responses from the chain of command since then. The Commandant of Cadets himself, Brigadier General Theodore Martin, expressed what I perceived to be a sincere desire to see to it that these issues are dealt with quickly and severely. As happy as I was to hear his words and see his genuine concern expressed, his influence alone will not be enough to change the confidently bigoted culture of this sad place.
Joe Nation
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 Feb, 2013 12:01 pm
@engineer,
There is hardly a more tightly engaged group of humans than West Point graduates.
(See: ring rappers, a derisive terms for Westies based on their tendency during discussions to tap on a table or desk top with their ring in order to bring attention to their background and position.)

This poor sob was about to graduate and enter the world of Army Command. He wouldn't get six feet before some Westie would say "Hey, aren't you the one who made us all look like a bunch of holy roller fundamentalists??"

Yeah.
Joe(his career was over the minute he asked for an EO review)Nation
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 Feb, 2013 12:38 pm
@Joe Nation,
A contract is valid when both parties fulfill what was set out at the beginning. This was a serious breach of contract and I doubt whether the US military could stand or would want the exposure they would receive in a lawsuit.

Quote:
What about the oath of secrecy I signed when I joined the CIA in 1964? I cannot be bound by it for four reasons: First, my oath was illegally, fraudulently obtained. My CIA recruiters lied to me about the clandestine services as they swore me in. They insisted the CIA functioned to gather intelligence. It did not kill, use drugs, or damage people's lives, they assured me. These lies were perpetuated in the following year of training courses. It was not until the disclosures of the Church and Pike Committees in 1975 that I learned the full, shocking truth about my employers.

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Stockwell/In_Search_Enemies.html


Quote:
There is hardly a more tightly engaged group of humans than West Point graduates.


That shows you the incredible power of the US propaganda system, Joe.

Quote:
He wouldn't get six feet before some Westie would say "Hey, aren't you the one who made us all look like a bunch of holy roller fundamentalists??"


This same attitude may well have got him a quick introduction to six feet under if he was put into a combat position.
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 Feb, 2013 01:16 pm
@Advocate,
Quote:
Subjecting the cadet to religious proselytizing is illegal under the first amendment.


This is completely wrong. The First Amendment defends the right to proselytize. How can you have free speech if you can't speak about your belief in God or express your opinion that people should follow God?

Free Speech doesn't give you the right to not be "subjected" to speech. This is completely backwards.

This is the crux of the story... and I don't buy it.

This guy has no case based on the First Amendment. It is possible he could argue misuse of authority, but the story doesn't seem to be saying that. Of course he has the free speech right to whine about the proselytism...

... but if he broke his contract because of other people's exercise of their First Amendment rights, he should pay up.
Lustig Andrei
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 Feb, 2013 01:56 pm
@JTT,
JTT wrote:
A contract is valid when both parties fulfill what was set out at the beginning. This was a serious breach of contract and I doubt whether the US military could stand or would want the exposure they would receive in a lawsuit.


Exactly what I said on the previous page.

engineer
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 Feb, 2013 03:19 pm
@JTT,
JTT wrote:

A contract is valid when both parties fulfill what was set out at the beginning. This was a serious breach of contract and I doubt whether the US military could stand or would want the exposure they would receive in a lawsuit.

Here was the contract: The US government will provide for tuition, books, room and board, uniforms, a monthly stipend for four years of education and provide a job upon graduation and in return, the student would serve a term in the military as an officer for a period of time, typically five years. In the first year (maybe two), the student may void the contract without penalty or repayment.

Where did the government fail to hold up their end here? You may be right that the academies do not want the publicity of a lawsuit, but that is not because they failed to meet their obligations.
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 Feb, 2013 04:45 pm
@Lustig Andrei,
Quote:
Exactly what I said on the previous page.


Excuse me for repeating such sagacity, Merry. Smile
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 Feb, 2013 04:49 pm
@engineer,
Quote:
Where did the government fail to hold up their end here?


They breached and continue to breach the fundamental law of the US concerning freedom of religion which entails freedom from religion, Engineer.

The breaches were as fundamental as those that caused John Stockwell to resign from the CIA. See post not far behind this one.
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 Feb, 2013 04:59 pm
@JTT,
Quote:

They breached and continue to breach the fundamental law of the US concerning freedom of religion which entails freedom from religion, Engineer.


That's bullshit.

Freedom of speech protects your right to express your views. This is particularly important in an educational institution.

You can't stop people from expressing their religious beliefs.

engineer
 
  2  
Reply Mon 25 Feb, 2013 05:26 pm
@JTT,
JTT wrote:

They breached and continue to breach the fundamental law of the US concerning freedom of religion which entails freedom from religion

Even if there were some fundamental law such as that, that does not void this particular contract. If Wells Fargo (for example) screws up my checking account that doesn't mean I don't have to pay my mortgage.
Z
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 Feb, 2013 05:29 pm
@engineer,
I agree. Fulfill your obligations or pay up, just like everyone else under the terms of the contract.
Even the bunny ranch at West Point ain't free. $20 for a lap dance.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 Feb, 2013 05:42 pm
@maxdancona,
Quote:
You can't stop people from expressing their religious beliefs.


You most assuredly can when it is being used as a cudgel by those in positions of power to denigrate those who don't hold to those same beliefs.

“The tipping point of my decision to resign was the realization that countless officers here and throughout the military are guilty of blatantly violating the oaths they swore to defend the Constitution,” Page wrote. “These men and women are criminals, complicit in light of day defiance of the Uniform Code of Military Justice through unconstitutional proselytism, discrimination against the non-religious and establishing formal policies to reward, encourage and even at times require sectarian religious participation.”

This fella entered the military with a contract that was written, had to have been written, guaranteeing all the rights allowable under the Constitution. It's so abundantly clear that the very people responsible for upholding those rights, the very people whose job it is is to administer those rights in a fair and equitable fashion have done everything but their sworn duty.
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 Feb, 2013 05:53 pm
@JTT,
That seems as biased as if he had something to gain by making a claim like that.

It seems to me that if you want to get out of a contract because in your view it is unfair, the smart thing to do (and the right thing to do) is to go to court where an hearing will listen to the merits of your case.

Leaving a $200,000 contract based on nothing but your unsupported (and radical) opinion is stupid.

You don't get to just up and leave a contract because you don't like something.

JTT
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 Feb, 2013 06:14 pm
@maxdancona,
Quote:
You don't get to just up and leave a contract because you don't like something.


People do that all the time, Max. When there is substantial breach of contract, you'd be an idiot to continue in that contract. There was substantial breach of contract. He wasn't treated as he was led to believe, by the fundamental law of the land, The US Constitution, not to mention what must be voluminous federal statutes, he would be treated.

Quote:
Leaving a $200,000 contract based on nothing but your unsupported (and radical) opinion is stupid.


Maybe reading even the original article wouldn't be such a bad idea.

Quote:
According to Page, shortly after his resignation, an Army captain told him that the U.S. Military Academy would not seek recoupment from him, either through enlisted service or financial reimbursement. In a letter provided to The Huffington Post dated Dec. 12, Superintendent Lt. Gen. David H. Huntoon did, in fact, recommend to the Army that Page be honorably discharged and that his educational expenses at West Point be waived.


Then what comes next, a blatant attempt to curtail more of his constitutional rights.

Quote:
Approximately one week after Page left West Point -- and after he went public with his story -- he said he received a call from an official telling him that a mistake had been made and the superintendent’s decision was not final. The official added that Blake should “keep his head down” until a final decision on recoupment had been made -- a process that could take up to six months.


Think about this for six months, Son. Do you really want to take on the US military, all by your lonesome?
engineer
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 Feb, 2013 07:27 pm
@JTT,
JTT wrote:

Quote:
You don't get to just up and leave a contract because you don't like something.


People do that all the time, Max. When there is substantial breach of contract, you'd be an idiot to continue in that contract. There was substantial breach of contract. He wasn't treated as he was led to believe, by the fundamental law of the land, The US Constitution, not to mention what must be voluminous federal statutes, he would be treated.

The contract he was on allowed him to drop after the first year without penalty. Once he saw the lay of the land and continued, the excuse that he didn't know what he was getting into wears thin.
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 Feb, 2013 10:03 pm
@engineer,
Quote:
The contract he was on allowed him to drop after the first year without penalty. Once he saw the lay of the land and continued, the excuse that he didn't know what he was getting into wears thin.


Young people are notoriously easy to buffalo. Throw in a thought destroying organization like the military and it's easy to see how even mature adults follow the drill.

You only have to look at how effectively the war crimes of Vietnam [over and above the initial war crime of attacking a sovereign people] were hidden by the Pentagon to understand just how dirty they really are, how effective is the mind control.

It matters not at all when one points up their criminality. The US military has done this for years and continues to do it.

Quote:
The Courageous Sacrifice Scholarship for Constitutional Defense is meant to honor those servicemembers who have displayed academic excellence and bravery in fighting to safeguard the foundational American values which every servicemember has sworn an oath to defend. The recipient of this $2000 scholarship is Blake Page, a former West Point cadet (and Director of MRFF Affairs at West Point) who was compelled to resign from the United States Military Academy by the pervasive Christian fundamentalist presence at the Academy. Despite having led the charge in fighting for (and winning) secular, non-religious alternatives to previously compulsory prayer ceremonies, Page could no longer tolerate the open disrespect and abuse of non-religious cadets at West Point. Disgusted by the clear favoritism shown by faculty and administration towards this unconstitutional milieu, Page left the Academy – but not before blowing the lid off of the Christian fundamentalist regime at West Point.

In a nationally featured Op-Ed, Page wrote, “We are all affected by the intrusion of religious authority into the government. There is no place for establishing the supremacy of one religion over all others in our country. Many American service members have had their fill of being told that the religious preference of the majority is superior to their personally held philosophical beliefs.”

http://www.militaryreligiousfreedom.org/2013/01/11513-military-religious-freedom-foundation-honors-constitutional-defenders-with-scholarship-research-grant/
engineer
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Feb, 2013 05:27 am
@JTT,
JTT wrote:

Young people are notoriously easy to buffalo.

As a moral argument, that has some validity. As a legal argument as to why a man can void a contract, it doesn't.
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Feb, 2013 06:40 am
@engineer,
Quote:
As a legal argument as to why a man can void a contract, it doesn't.


I don't think that you're quite as sure on that as you appear, E.
 

Related Topics

 
Copyright © 2022 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.04 seconds on 05/17/2022 at 05:56:27