Jesus, what did he really say?

neologist wrote ..... Whatever Jesus may have said, as a Jew, he would have read Solomon and understood that ". . . the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all . . ." ( Ecclesiastes 9:5)

RESPONSE ....... Jesus understood Ecclesiastes for what it was, the satirical work of Solomon aimed at those who believed in neither life after the first death, or the resurrection.

The book of Job, a number of the Psalms, Parables, Ecclesiastes, and the Wisdom of Solomon, all belong to the Hogmah or Wisdom Literature of the Hebrews, ‘Mashal’ means Similitude, parable, or proverb.----- In the book of Sirach, R, H, Charles translation chapter 47 verse 17, it is written concerning Solomon, “By thy songs, parables, dark speeches, and SATIRES, thou didst cause astonishment to the peoples etc.”

“Eat, drink and be merry, for tomorrow we die. I envy those who are dead and gone; they are better off than those who are still alive. But better off than either, are those who have never been born etc. A man may have a hundred children and live a long time, but no matter how long he lives, if he does not get his share of happiness and does not receive a descent burial, then I say that a baby born dead is better off. Man and animal receive the same ultimate reward, total oblivion, from the dust they came and to the dust they shall return. A wise man is no better off than a fool, the reward for doing good is the same as that for doing evil, so don’t be too good or too wise, Why kill yourself?

We are all going to our final resting place, and although life is useless, the conclusion of the matter is, if you live a religious life you may at least experience some peace in the short span of consciousness that has been allocated to you in this useless life.

So go ahead and eat, drink and be merry, drink your wine and be cheerful. It’s all right with God. Enjoy your life with the woman you love, as long as you live the useless life that God has given you in this world. Enjoy every useless day of it, because that is all that you’ll get for all your troubles.

Never again will you take part in anything that happens in the world, because there will be no action, no thought, no knowledge, no wisdom in the world of the dead to where the righteous, the wicked, the wise and the fools, animal and man, are all going. For the living know that they are going to die, but the dead know nothing.”

Solomon’s songs are found in his book, ‘SONG OF SONGS,’ his parables are found in his book of 'PROVERBS', his dark speeches are in the ‘WISDOM OF SOLOMON,’ and who can read the negative and even depressing words from the book of ‘Ecclesiastes without realizing that here is the SATRICAL work of Solomon, aimed at those who believed in neither life after death, or the resurrection from the dead.

It's important to know that Jesus had a number of "false" parables. That is, Jesus spoke of two main things.

"The kingdom of heaven is like..."
" The master... "

While it is tempting to see the master as God, I think much of the problem of 20th century Christianity is thar they have been stuck in a sort of spiritual rut, thinking they understand the passage by a simple read.

The "kingdom of heaven" parables are an accurate (bur sometimes cryptic) account of life in God's presence.
The "master" parables however seem to be a sort of challenge. As if to ask the Pharisees, "Is this your version of God?" The master in these stories often brutally punishes people for a seemingly minor crime ( casting someone into the outer darkness for not having the proper clothing). In the parable of the talents, the interest that he advises the poor servant to collect is unlawful for Jews to collect. That is, the Pharisees are regarding God as a harsh punisher who takes away from those who only wish to keep what they have. These parables go back to back, finally ending in a master who separates the sheep and the goats.

In other words, while it is tempting to read this as "all the people that I hate will be punished", what Jesus instead is saying is that a world that lives with a bunch of judgemental assholes wouldn't end well for the very people hoping for this. But remember, the person mentioned is "the master" not God.
Frequently, the Pharisees give an answer to Jesus's questions and it seems like they followed along with the parable. But then he condemns them, not for their answer but their inability to follow their own standards.

Josephus a Jewish historian, AD 37- 100 tells of Jesus in his writings. Because his life time coincided with many who knew and interacted with Jesus, his writings are good evidence that Jesus was the person that the new testament refers to.

Hello Ron, please don't reach out to Setanta, sadly he passed away a few years ago. We old members miss him greatly.

Josephus the historian was born in Jerusalem in 37/38 A.D., some 7 to 8 years after the death of Jesus at 3 PM on Wednesday the 14th of Nisan 30 A.D. You are correct in that he would have heard and read about the man Jesus, by those who interacted with him.

Or any number of other mystics, prophets and self-styled holy men prevalent in the region at the time.

For a comprehensive account see Jesus and the Lost Goddess by Timothy Freke.

Like the canonical Gospels, Josephus' account was based on 2nd, 3rd, 4th hand accounts, Chinese whispers, exaggerations and pure lies.

A good example being Luke's wishful thinking and plain bullshit around the census of Quirinius.

Give it a miss izzy and stick with what you might know something about, because it's plain even to a blind man that you know bugger all about the CHRISTIAN scriptures.

Your problem is you value dogma over truth.

Whenever your falsehoods are shown you resort to insults.

You've got it all wrong izzy old mate, an insult to all Christians is when someone calls the truth of God's word as revealed by Luke, "a load of bullshit."

By saying that you know bugger all about the scriptures is not an insult, it's a fact.

Luke's Gospel lies about the census. Proper historical records, not heresay, show that what Luke said did not happen.

You can't answer that so you act all puritanical.

And now you're saying, it's not just Luke who fucked up, it's God. He was the one who got confused and started talking bollocks about the census.

Hardly the act of an omnipotent deity, but a senile god seems appropriate for your malign religion.

You've got a bunyip in your billabong.

Only the stupid bigoted ones, of which admittedly there are a huge amount, but those people are christians in name only.

They bang on about Christ then do the exact opposite of what he preached.

You know what you are, someone who values dogma and bigotry more than the truth.

And what do you think of those who belong to the Jewish faith izzy?

Why is it erroneously said that the Roman census, which was taken in Israel at the time of the birth of Jesus, was the census of Quirinius?
A vassal state within the Roman Empire, was a kingdom that had been conquered by Rome, who then chose a client/puppet King to rule that vassal state in the manner as prescribed by the ruling power which in this case was Rome.
Herod did not rule a free and autonomous country. Although he was allowed to tax the people of that country, but Certain limitations were put on the Kings of all vassal states, they could neither wage independent wars or make treaties, plus other limitations, and if they overstepped those limits they were immediately sacked by the ruling power and another puppet put in their place.
Semi-autonomous kingdoms within the Roman Empire, such as Judea, which was under the Roman puppet King, ‘Herod the Great’, were expected to maintain and support the continued growth of those kingdoms, and the funds needed for those projects were the responsibility of the king, who taxed that kingdom. Rome did not tax the Israelites until after the death of Herod the Great.
The Israelites were taxed by Herod the GREAT, right op until 4 B.C, the year in which he died.
Those who wish to attack and denigrate the Holy scriptures, will say that the Roman census which was taken in Israel at the time of the birth of Jesus, was the census of Quirinius the governor of Syria, and therefore the scriptures cannot be trusted, but of course it wasn’t.
The Census of Quirinius was a census of Judea taken by Quirinius, Roman governor of Syria, in 6 CE, 9 years after the death of Herod the Great in 4 B.C.
The census taken, during which census Jesus was born, was not a census of Judea, but a census of the entire Roman Empire, decreed by Caesar Augustus in 8 B.C., which took some 5 years to complete. TO BE CONTINUED.

Continued from previous post.

Quirinius was a Roman aristocrat, who, after the banishment of Herod Archelaus from the tetrarchy of Judea in 6 AD, 8 years after the death of his father ‘Herod the Great’ was appointed legate governor of Syria, to which the province of Judaea had been added for the purpose of a census.
During the census of the entire Roman Empire, which was decreed by Caesar Augustus in 8 B.C., Quirinius was on a campaign in Syria as Augustus’ Vicegerent, and that census was not an exercise in tax collecting, but an exercise in information gathering, which took some 5 years to implement and complete
The Greek word “Apographe,” used in Luke 2; and Acts 5; is erroneously translated as “TAX.” But according to Young’s Analytical Concordance, it means, “A writing off or Register.” And Rome did not tax Judea until a Roman Procurator was put in place of the banished Herod Archelaus.
The Amplified version…. Luke 2: 1; In those days it occurred that a decree went out from Caesar Augustus that the whole Roman Empire should be REGISTERED. Luke 2: 2; This was the first enrolment, and it was made when Quirinius was “hegemon” in Syria. Luke 2: 3; And all the people were going to be REGISTED, each to his own city or town.

Early in the twentieth century, a papyrus was discovered which contained an edict by G. Vibius Maximus, the Roman governor of Egypt, stating: Since the enrolment by households is approaching, it is necessary to command all who for any reason are out of their own district to return to their own home, in order to perform the usual business of the taxation… (Cobern, C.M. 1929. The New Archeological Discoveries and their Bearing upon the New Testament. New York and London: Funk & Wagnalls, p. 47; Unger, M.F. 1962. Archaeology and the New Testament. Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, p. 64).

The same papyrus also confirms Luke’s assertion that a man had to bring his family with him when he traveled to his place of ancestry in order to be properly counted by the Roman authorities (Lk. 2:5). The document reads: I register Pakebkis, the son born to me and my wife, Taasies and Taopis in the 10th year of Tiberius Claudius Caesar Augustus Germanicus Imperator [Emperor], and request that the name of my aforesaid son Pakeb[k] is to be entered on the list” (Boyd, R.T. 1991. World’s Bible Handbook. Grand Rapids, MI: World Publishing, p. 415).

This sheds light on why Joseph had to bring his highly pregnant fiancée and soon to become wife along with him when he went to Bethlehem. Such discoveries caused the late George A. Barton, Ph.D., Professor of Biblical Literature and Semitic Languages at Bryn Mawr and former Director of the American School of Oriental Research in Jerusalem, to comment: Luke’s statement, that Joseph went up from Nazareth to Bethlehem, because he was of the house and lineage of David, to enrol himself with Mary (Luke 2:4, 5), turns out to be in exact accord with the governmental regulations as we now know them from the papyri.
The Living New Testament….. Luke 2: 1; About this time Caesar Augustus, the Roman Emperor, decreed that a census should be taken throughout the nation. Luke 2: 2; this census was taken when Quirinius was “hegemon” in Syria. Luke 2: 3; Everyone was required to return to his ancestral home for this ‘REGISTRATION.”

RSV…… 2: 1; In those days a decree went out from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be ENROLLED. Luke 2: 2; This was the first ENROLLMENT, when Quirinius was “hegemon” in Syria.
Luke does not specifically state what the Roman office held by Quirinius actually was when the first registration or enrolment was made in Judaea in 6 B.C. But in reference to the position he held, Luke uses the Greek word “hegemoneuontos tes Surias Kureniou.’ “hegemon,” Which the authors of the English bible have erroneously translated as “Governor.”
We know that in the time of Caligula, the African administration was divided in such a way, that the military power, and with it the foreign policy of the Province, was controlled by a Lieutenant of Augustus, while the internal affairs of the Province were left to the ordinary governor, a Proconsul.

Quirinius was a special Lieutenant of Augustus, who conducted the war against the Homonadenses, while Varus, the Governor, administered the ordinary affairs of Syria. The duties of Quirinius might be described by calling him dux in Latin, and the Greek equivalent is necessarily and correctly hegemon, as Luke has it. TO BE CONTINUED. Are you still with me izzy?

Continued on from previous post.

Around the year of 6 B. C., the Governors of Galatia and Syria were involved in the construction of a system of military roads and garrison cities. They had a major problem. The Homonadenses had taken control of a Roman client nation located in the Taurus mountains which traversed the centre of these operations. Syria and Galatia would normally be required to intervene but Galatia had no army and Varus had no military experience. Whereas Quirinius was a general and famous for having quelled the Marmaridea rebellion in Cilicia (Libya) in BC.14. Quirinius was the one who Caesar Augustus sent to conquer the Homonadenses nation. This campaign had to have been implemented from Syria, as the Taurus Mountains, marked the northern limit of the Syrian plain from where Quirinius would have undoubtedly launched his campaign.
It necessarily follows that in 6-5 B.C., General Quirinius dealt with the Homonadenses situation as Augustus' vicegerent or special Lieutenant, whilst Varus attended to the internal administration of Syria.
As Herod the Great died in 4 B.C. believing that Jesus was over 12 months old and ordering the death of all the male children two years and below, or all who were born in and after 6 B.C., we can now safely assume that Jesus was born in 6 B.C., when the census of ENROLLMENT was taken in Judaea, while General Quirinius in 6-5 B.C., was dealing with the Homonadenses in the Taurus Mountains, which marked the northern limit of the Syrian plain from where Quirinius would have undoubtedly launched his campaign against the Homonadenses.
This reveals that the census of Israel in 6.B.C, when Quirinius was on a campaign in Syria as Augustus’ Vicegerent, was not an exercise in tax collecting, but an exercise in information gathering, which was a census of the entire Roman Empire, decreed by Caesar Augustus, It would have taken a few years to implement and complete this. It was decreed in 8 BC. and the completed set of documents, which registered the loyalty of Roman citizens and people of note in subject nations to Caesar Augustus, was presented to him in 3 BC.
The following is Augustus' own account: Page 1. "during my sixth term as consul (BC.28), I, along with my comrade Marcus Agrippa, commanded a census to be taken of the people. I directed a lustrum, the first in forty-one years, in which 4,063,000 Roman citizens were counted. And once again, with imperial authority, I single handedly authorized a lustrum when the consuls of Rome were Gaius Censorinus and Gaius Asinius (8 B.C.), during which time 4,233,000 Roman citizens were counted."
In Luke’s day there was no B.C. (Before Christ) or C.E. (Christian Era). So, in what year did Luke say that the census of Caesar Augustus was held in Israel? [ANSWER] In the year that General Quirinius, as Augustus’ Vicegerent or special Lueitenant, was on a campaign in Syria dealing with the Homonadenses situation, which we now know as the year 6 B.C. two years before the death of Herod the Great in 4 B.C.