9
   

Heart of Darkness by Joseph Conrad

 
 
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Sep, 2012 01:18 pm
@Harper,
Harper wrote:
Morel concludes that it is time to take off the kid’s gloves


the kid can't take off its own gloves?


(please tell us that wasn't your answer to the question)
izzythepush
 
  2  
Reply Tue 18 Sep, 2012 01:57 pm
@Harper,
There's contradictions throughout, but the most obvious one is how the 'colonial enterprise' tells investors about how its main concerns are civilising and contruction, but in reality they're just a bunch of carpetbaggers. There's Kurtz's book, and the scrawl all over it that Andrew has previouly mentioned.

Also there's a stark difference between the way Marlowe talks about the red(British) parts of the map and the other imperial powers. Maybe it's just because he's English.
Harper
 
  0  
Reply Tue 18 Sep, 2012 03:29 pm
@Setanta,
Spain didn't exist in the 16th century. Are you hallucinating?

http://lib.byu.edu/digital/phil2/

Quote:
About the Collection and its Historical Context

The following description of the letters of Philip II, King of Spain -- and their historical context -- was assembled by H.P. Kraus, Rare Books and Manuscripts, New York, NY, preceding Kraus's sale of the collection to Brigham Young University.

Philip II, King of Spain - The Cuatro Villas de la Costa, Spain. A large and important collection of letters and other documents, almost all signed by the King, mainly to Diego de Orellana de Chaves, Corregidor of the Four Towns of the Sea on Spain's North Coast, on the naval war against England and France, etc. Location: Spain (chiefly the various residences of the Court; Santander, Laredo, etc.); various dates from 20 November 1591 to 10 July 1597.
Harper
 
  0  
Reply Tue 18 Sep, 2012 04:13 pm
Here is more on what Edmund Morel referred to as the persecution of the Netherlands by Phillip II of Spain in the 16th Century, this from Motley in "The Rise of the Dutch Republic"
Quote:
With the departure of Orange, a total eclipse seemed to come over the Netherlands. The country was absolutely helpless, the popular heart cold with apprehension. All persons at all implicated in the late troubles, or suspected of heresy, fled from their homes. Fugitive soldiers were hunted into rivers, cut to pieces in the fields, hanged, burned, or drowned, like dogs, without quarter, and without remorse. The most industrious and valuable part of the population left the land in droves. The tide swept outwards with such rapidity that the Netherlands seemed fast becoming the desolate waste which they had been before the Christian era. Throughout the country, those Reformers who were unable to effect their escape betook themselves to their old lurking-places. The new religion was banished from all the cities, every conventicle was broken up by armed men, the preachers and leading members were hanged, their disciples beaten with rods, reduced to beggary, or imprisoned, even if they sometimes escaped the scaffold. An incredible number, however, were executed for religious causes. Hardly a village so small, says the Antwerp chronicler,—[Meteren]—but that it could furnish one, two, or three hundred victims to the executioner. The new churches were levelled to the ground, and out of their timbers gallows were constructed. It was thought an ingenious pleasantry to hang the Reformers upon the beams under which they had hoped to worship God. The property of the fugitives was confiscated. The beggars in name became beggars in reality. Many who felt obliged to remain, and who loved their possessions better than their creed, were suddenly converted into the most zealous of Catholics. Persons who had for years not gone to mass, never omitted now their daily and nightly visits to the churches. Persons who had never spoken to an ecclesiastic but with contumely, now could not eat their dinners without one at their table. Many who were suspected of having participated in Calvinistic rites, were foremost and loudest in putting down and denouncing all forms and shows of the reformation. The country was as completely "pacified," to use the conqueror's expression, as Gaul had been by Caesar.


BTW the course that these topics refer to is the History of Human Rights from pre-history to present. That is an awful lot of ground to cover. None of us cna become experts in everything. My area of concentration is American History 1865- present...for now...although I will narrow it later. Heart of Darkness is almost a mere afterthought in the context of the large picture. For instance, according to Stefan Ludwig Hoffman, PhD, as many as 10 million Congolese died during (roughly) the era of King Leopold's reign. Do we have an Belgian Congo Holocaust deniers out there?

Setanta, Setanta, anyone?
Harper
 
  0  
Reply Tue 18 Sep, 2012 04:16 pm
@izzythepush,
Quote:
There's contradictions throughout, but the most obvious one is how the 'colonial enterprise' tells investors about how its main concerns are civilising and contruction, but in reality they're just a bunch of carpetbaggers. There's Kurtz's book, and the scrawl all over it that Andrew has previouly mentioned.

Also there's a stark difference between the way Marlowe talks about the red(British) parts of the map and the other imperial powers. Maybe it's just because he's English.

Yes, of course, most Brits thought of imperialism as fine and dandy but not genocide, which clearly it was (The Congo atrocities) even though the word was not invented until after WWII.
0 Replies
 
Harper
 
  -2  
Reply Tue 18 Sep, 2012 04:25 pm
@ehBeth,
Quote:
the kid can't take off its own gloves?


(please tell us that wasn't your answer to the question)

Us? Is there a gerbil up your rectum? Please don't tell me this is your idea of humor. Go troll some other thread with your typo flame. I do not have time for it.

Quote:
...Surely the time has come to cease the usage of kid gloves and rose-water in dealing with this Congo question? For eight years that process has been adopted...

---Edmund Morel "King Leopold's Rule in Africa"
0 Replies
 
Harper
 
  0  
Reply Tue 18 Sep, 2012 04:40 pm
Some background on the Spanish Netherlands

Quote:
Spanish Netherlands, (c. 1579–1713), Spanish-held provinces located in the southern part of the Low Countries (roughly corresponding to present Belgium and Luxembourg).
Although the provinces of the Low Countries had for some years and for many reasons been chafing under foreign rule, the revolt against Spain received its major impetus from the zeal of members of the nascent Calvinist movement. It was to quell their insurrection that Fernando Álvarez de Toledo y Pimental, duque (duke) de Alba, was sent in 1567. His harsh, repressive measures (see Troubles, Council of) and heavy taxation met with immediate resistance. King Philip II, recognizing his mistake, recalled the hated Alba in 1573. Although the largely Roman Catholic southern provinces had remained loyal to Spain to this time, an active Protestant movement and the growing desire to be autonomous influenced them to join in a united resistance to Spain. In 1576 delegates from the union of northern and southern provinces, known collectively as the States General, met and issued the Pacification of Ghent (see Ghent, Pacification of). Yet within three years it was apparent that the religious truce would not hold. The differences between the agrarian, Roman Catholic south and the commercial–industrial, Calvinist-dominated north were too great. In addition, the Spanish king had chosen as his representative Alessandro Farnese (later duke of Parma), well known for his diplomatic and military skills. By emphasizing Roman Catholic unity and showing moderation in his treatment of the Protestants in the south, he regained the confidence of the southern provinces and reestablished Spanish control over them; by 1585 the union of the northern and southern Low Countries was over.
Despite the warfare and confusion, the Spanish Netherlands experienced a resurgence of economic and intellectual growth in the early 17th century. The linen industry quickly recovered from the Spanish reconquest and soon surpassed its former production levels. Flemish painting flourished in the hands of Peter Paul Rubens, Anthony van Dyck, and others. The major cities of Ghent and Bruges grew rapidly. Agriculture advanced through the digging of canals and the introduction of new crops and harvesting methods, and prosperity continued into the mid-17th century.
Although the southern provinces were far from independent, they did experience a considerable degree of freedom in internal affairs. They controlled their own judiciary system and set up councils to aid the governor general. They also enjoyed the privileges established with the Joyeuse Entrée. Foreign affairs, however, were strictly the domain of the Spanish throne.
Beset on all sides, the Spanish Netherlands was the scene of constant warfare. It was in the unfortunate position of being a buffer between Protestant and Roman Catholic states. Consequently, it was mercilessly carved up. Northern Brabant, Zeeland, and the region east of the Meuse River was ceded to the United Provinces (Dutch Republic) in 1648. The county of Artois was taken by France in 1659, to be
followed later by large southern portions of Hainaut, Luxembourg, and Flanders. In 1648 the Peace of Münster closed the flourishing port of Antwerp to foreign trade.
Under these conditions, the territory began to decline. Spanish control was lost when Charles II of Spain died without issue (1700), naming Philip, duc d’Anjou of France as his successor (as Philip V). The Spanish Netherlands was ruled for six years by Bourbon France and occupied for another seven by British and Dutch troops. In 1713 the Treaties of Utrecht divided the Spanish inheritance, and rule of the Spanish Netherlands passed to the Holy Roman emperor Charles VI and the Austrian Habsburgs (see Austrian Netherlands).
0 Replies
 
Harper
 
  0  
Reply Tue 18 Sep, 2012 05:09 pm
And here is my final draft.

Nicole Anderson Week 5 Response Paper Sept 18th, 2012
What is the basis for the claims that Morel and Williams make on behalf of the Congolese people (and to whom do they make them)? What do they say must be done and why?
The basis for the claim is the genocide committed against the Congolese People: “Killing members of the group…” Article A 1948 UN Convention, (Power 27) the group being the native people of the Congo.1 Both Morel and Williams appeal to the world community in general and to the government of Belgium in particular. In addition, Williams appeals to God! They say the genocide (of course, they do not use the word) must stop. Both writers articulate the horrors of these atrocities. Why they want it stopped is self-evident. It is, after all, genocide.
I found it interesting that Morel juxtaposes the atrocities committed by Phillip II in the Netherlands (roughly the same area as 19th century Belgium I believe) citing thirty-thousand deaths with the Congolese atrocities. (119)
It behooves me to list some of the specific actions perpetrated by King Leopold’s “agents of civilization” as Morel sarcastically calls them. Here he compares the atrocities to those of King Phillip. “You will find nothing worse in the pages of Motley,3” such as “depopulation, slaughter, mutilation…cruel and systematic oppression…positive starvation…” (120) Morel states the oppressors engaged in the “slave trade.” (130) Morel calls the atrocities a “crime against humanity” (Are you listening, Professor Moyn?) Morel concludes that it is time to “take off the kid gloves” (referring to inadequate measures proposed eight years prior) and end the atrocities. (141)
As most of the preceding refers to Morel, I will close with a few thoughts on Williams. Most noteworthy is Williams’ depiction of tricking the natives into thinking the white man possessed magical powers! (144) Williams alleges murder, arson and robbery, (146) beatings using a “chicote” a flogging device made from hippopotamus skin, (147) and rape. (148)
Specific appeals made by Williams are to the Conference of Berlin, anti-slavery societies and humankind in general and the Heavenly Father. (151)
1 I thought I might be going out on a limb by calling it genocide (at first) but not after today’s lecture. Ten Million killed according to Prof. Hoffman
2 Morel refers to Motley’s The Rise of the Dutch Republic. “You will find nothing worse in the pages of Motley. And the agents of Phillip of Spain had this much in their favour that, in their eyes, every women killed meant the elimination of unborn or unconceived heretics. It was clearly the Lord’s work form their point of view…”


(The Professor Moyn refers to Sam Moyn, author of The Last Utopia which posits that the Human Rights Movement began in the 1970s.)
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  3  
Reply Wed 19 Sep, 2012 01:30 am
@Harper,
No, your sources are hallucinating. This is from Wikipedia, so you can sneer if you want to, but this information can be verified elsewhere:

Quote:
Philip II of Spain (Spanish: Felipe II; 21 May 1527 – 13 September 1598) was King of Castile as Philip II and King of Naples, Aragon, Sicily, and Portugal as Philip I (Portuguese: Filipe I). During his marriage to Queen Mary I, he was King of England and Ireland and pretender to the kingdom of France.[1][2] As heir to the Duchy of Burgundy, he was lord of the Seventeen Provinces of the Netherlands. Known in Spanish as "Philip the Prudent" (Felipe el Prudente), his empire included territories in every continent then known to Europeans and during his reign Spain was the foremost Western European power. (emphasis added)


You apparently (and this does not surprise me) missed the significance of the discussion Roger and i had. Spain, as a concept, existed. Spain, as a nation, did not. Germany, as a concept, existed. Germany as a nation did not. Italy, as a concept, existed. Italy, as a nation, did not.

It is hardly my fault if you, and your internet sources don't understand that Castile, Leon, Aragon, Portugal, the Two Sicilies, Burgundy and the Netherlands had different governments, different taxation, different laws--in short, there was no coherent entity one could point to and say "This is Spain." What you and your sloppy sources are calling Spain did not exist, and what Carlos I, Philip II, Philip III and Philip IV controlled was a personal family inheritance.

You have completely failed to addressed that bullshit about "Belgi" and genocide. For your information, i've read Motley, so no one needs to fling that up in my face, either. The Spanish may have wanted to exterminate the Protestants, but there was no genocide going on. That's just typical, radical, hysterical political propaganda which i guess one can expect from adademia these days.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  2  
Reply Wed 19 Sep, 2012 01:33 am
@Harper,
Kiss my ass, you snotty bitch. Come up with a reputable historian who actually knows what he's talking about who claims that genocide was practiced in the 16th century Netherlands, and not some nob who makes wild statements because they are considered charming by politically radical students. All i've said is that there was no genocide going on in the Netherlands in the 16th century, and that the Netherlands was not conquered by Spain. These two egregious errors of your source should have tipped you off that your source is unreliable.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Sep, 2012 01:49 am
For those who are interested, The Rise of the Dutch Republic is a good read by a sound scholar, although it is based on a silly premise which Motley outlines at the begining. That was to the effect that the northwestern European people of German descent created modern democracy. He claims that it started with the Dutch, was advanced by the English civil wars of the 17th century, and culminated in the American Revolution. That's twaddle but his scholarship in describing the events in the 16th century Netherlands is good. The edition i read was in two volumes, and before i came to end of the second volulme i had decided that Motley just wanted to write a biography of William the Silent, but without all that messy detail like his birth, childhood and education. Motley admits as much at the end of the book.

Motley was a contemporary of Otto von Bismarck, and in fact attended university with him at Göttingen. He is one of the minor stars of the great American historians of the 19th century.
0 Replies
 
 

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