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Chicago Teachers: Are They Nuts?

 
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Sep, 2012 12:59 pm
@Linkat,
Linkat wrote:

Again - private schools retain teachers at a much lower salary.


You sure about that? The teachers I know who work at private schools out here in CA often are paid much higher than those at public schools. They also tend to have much more education.

Quote:
Not sure why other than the dedication of the teachers. I am not even saying they do not deserve it - but logically how can you increase their salary without increasing revenues from the towns? You need to have money to pay for the salary. Other than increasing taxes, how do you propose paying for these increased costs?


The answer is simple: you increase taxes!! If you want quality education to be funded by localities, those localities must pay for it. Period.

I just don't understand this idea that people will get something for nothing... you want to pay low local taxes, you're going to have crappy schools.

Cycloptichorn
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Sep, 2012 01:03 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Good points, I think you're right on both of them. The time I worked longest in a large organization, I moved up through different levels, even categories - much more room for growth. It's even a psychological reward system to some extent.

I have a family member who is a high school teacher. He was made vice principal at some point and, after giving it a good try, said no and went back to straight out teaching. He didn't study teaching to become a career diciplinarian. So, as I understand it, he took a pay loss to be happier at work.
0 Replies
 
DrewDad
 
  3  
Reply Tue 11 Sep, 2012 01:06 pm
@Linkat,
Linkat wrote:

Again - private schools retain teachers at a much lower salary. Not sure why other than the dedication of the teachers.

Probably, because of better working conditions. From my teacher friends, most would kill, or at least maim, in order to work primarily with high-socio-economic-status kids. The parents are involved, and help with homework. The kids reliably have electricity, hot water, good nutrition, access to a computer, etc.

Teaching healthy, happy kids with parental support is not really the norm, though.

Linkat wrote:
I am not even saying they do not deserve it - but logically how can you increase their salary without increasing revenues from the towns? You need to have money to pay for the salary. Other than increasing taxes, how do you propose paying for these increased costs?

It kinda depends on what kind of society we want to live in 15 years from now.
boomerang
 
  3  
Reply Tue 11 Sep, 2012 01:10 pm
My understanding of the situation is that the only reason they can legally strike is over compensation issues so they've tied everything to compensation even though it isn't about compensation at all.

It really is about "value added modeling" as a way to assess teacher effectiveness. There are some serious problems with that. Here's a few links explaining why:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/answer-sheet/post/leading-mathematician-debunks-value-added/2011/05/08/AFb999UG_blog.html

http://jaredbernsteinblog.com/the-teachers%E2%80%99-strike-in-chicago-and-vams/

Public schools are spending millions every year on testing that doesn't give any good data about the students, the teachers or the schools. (Many private schools are exempt from these tests -- that could be a big reason they spend less per student.)

The teachers in Chicago are really fighting to improve schools for every student. They deserve our support. You should buy them a pizza:

Quote:
Buy a teacher lunch by donating to Primo's Pizza, a locally owned and teacher-friendly restaurant near the strike HQ delivering pizza, pasta and salads. Call Gus or Daisy at Primo’s Pizza at (312) 243-1052 . Primo’s is at 816 W Van Buren Street, Chicago. Open 11 am to 9 pm Monday through Friday.

http://ctscampaign.weebly.com/strike-support.html
joefromchicago
 
  4  
Reply Tue 11 Sep, 2012 01:22 pm
@Linkat,
Linkat wrote:

My only point is - it can be done.

Sure, it can be done if you turn public schools into private schools -- which is something that Rahm Emmanuel is actively trying to do in Chicago. Ultimately, though, there will be some students who the private schools will reject, at which point public schools must take on the responsibility to educate them. And because they're the ones that private schools can't make a profit on, they tend to be the most expensive students to educate. Then, when the public schools are filled only with those students, it will give yet another opportunity for people like you to say that " government involvement almost always causes higher costs."

This is reminiscent of no-kill animal shelters that castigate local animal pounds for euthanizing animals, while, at the same time, refusing to accept those animals that are sick or old or otherwise unadoptable -- and those animals are then carted off to the government-operated pound, which, by necessity, has to put them down. Private schools can always fob off their problems on the public schools, because the public schools have no choice but to take every child, and then the private schools turn around and proclaim that they're doing a better job than the public schools because "look at all the problems that they have in the public schools!"

Give public schools the same option as private schools of picking and choosing their students and you'll see immediate cost savings. You may not like the results, but you'll see cost savings.
joefromchicago
 
  2  
Reply Tue 11 Sep, 2012 01:24 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:

Linkat wrote:

Again - private schools retain teachers at a much lower salary.


You sure about that? The teachers I know who work at private schools out here in CA often are paid much higher than those at public schools. They also tend to have much more education.

Depends on what you consider "private." Parochial school teachers traditionally receive much lower compensation than public school teachers -- much much lower.
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Sep, 2012 01:26 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:

Linkat wrote:

Again - private schools retain teachers at a much lower salary.


You sure about that? The teachers I know who work at private schools out here in CA often are paid much higher than those at public schools. They also tend to have much more education.


interesting. it is the opposite here in Ontario. Private school teachers are paid much less than private school teachers, and are usually significantly less qualified (i.e. can get a job in the private system with a B. Ed. only).
ehBeth
 
  2  
Reply Tue 11 Sep, 2012 01:29 pm
@joefromchicago,
joefromchicago wrote:
Give public schools the same option as private schools of picking and choosing their students and you'll see immediate cost savings.


absolutely!
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Sep, 2012 01:30 pm
@Linkat,
Linkat wrote:
I would imagine you can take a greater sample - with charter schools included - and see that you can reduce the cost per child.


the research doesn't support this conclusion
Irishk
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Sep, 2012 01:36 pm
@boomerang,
Ooh interesting. In that case, I wonder if the union would be willing to compromise on their 35% pay increase demand?

(Trying to muster up some sympathy for Rahm here, but it's tough LOL)
0 Replies
 
Irishk
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Sep, 2012 01:52 pm
Karen Lewis hates Arne Duncan! I just watched her on youtube making fun of his lisp and she said, "You know it's obvious he went to a private school because if he'd gone to a public school, we'd have fixed that lisp!" LOL
Linkat
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Sep, 2012 01:59 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Can people in Chicago afford higher taxes? Question as I am not familar with the amount of earnings people have in that city. And with a low economy my assumption is it is difficult to get more money from people if they cannot afford it.

Fine if you come from an affluent town/city, but not if the community cannot afford it. Not going to do the city well if people end up foreclosing on homes because the taxes are unaffordable.
Linkat
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Sep, 2012 02:02 pm
@DrewDad,
There are many private schools though that getting private funding where low income city kids go to school. Now granted these children are more likely to be highly motivated - how they got there, but they don't have these things: [quoteThe parents are involved, and help with homework. The kids reliably have electricity, hot water, good nutrition, access to a computer, etc.[/quote]

I've attended some of the programs as my role in a volunteer committee.
0 Replies
 
Linkat
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Sep, 2012 02:04 pm
@ehBeth,
Yes - here as well in Mass - unless you are talking about the really high level most expensive private schools that you need to be a millionaire to attend. I am talking about the private schools that a middle income family can afford.
0 Replies
 
Linkat
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Sep, 2012 02:06 pm
@ehBeth,
What research -

See here:

http://stateimpact.npr.org/ohio/2011/12/05/nationwide-charters-schools-spend-1800-less-per-student/
Miller
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Sep, 2012 02:24 pm
@boomerang,
boomerang wrote:

Rahm Emanuel sends his kids to the U of Chicago Laboratory School (http://www.ucls.uchicago.edu/), an amazing place that looks NOTHING like CPS. Why isn't he pushing for reforms to make public schools more like the Lab School instead of this idiotic NCLB and RttT baloney?


Emanuel must have some kind of an academic appointment at the University of Chicago. I think its a free school, open to kids with parents who work at the Univeristy. I know that Obama's kids went to that school also.
0 Replies
 
Miller
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Sep, 2012 02:25 pm
@boomerang,
boomerang wrote:

Politicians and school board members should be required to send their kids to the public school in their district.


If they did, most of the kids wouldn't stand the chance of a snowball in hell of ever making it to school alive.
0 Replies
 
Miller
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Sep, 2012 02:26 pm
@Irishk,
Irishk wrote:

They're special people, though -- no unionized schools for their kids. The mayor probably also has armed body guards for protection.


Mayor Daley always had Chicago Policemen guarding him. Emmanual probably also does.
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Sep, 2012 02:26 pm
@Linkat,
Quote:
charter schools currently spend more per student than school districtsEACH student who attends a community (charter) school instead of a local public school costs the state nearly two and a half times the funding amount.
PlunderBund (http://s.tt/1gReX)


Quote:

Community schools in Franklin County received an average per pupil state revenue of $9,416.81. Life Skills Center of Columbus North is the lowest at $6,011.67 and Noble Academy-Columbus at $65,376.66. That is not a misprint. The Ohio Department of Education reports that exact dollar amount as the per pupil revenue for Noble Academy. I’m willing to consider that number as being a data quirk, but what about the next five highest amounts?

$14,369.93 — Scholarts Preparatory School and Career Center for Children
$15,471.46 — Summit Academy Middle School-Columbus
$16,550.01 — FCI Academy
$21,396.76 — Summit Academy Transition High School Columbus
$28,902.61 — Oakstone Community School

Could these all be quirks? In fact, 49 Franklin County community schools are reported to have received state revenue in excess of Whitehall City SD’s amount. To clarify again, on average a Franklin County community school is paid $5458.87 over twice the amount per pupil that local school districts receive.


PlunderBund (http://s.tt/1gReX)



http://www.plunderbund.com/2011/03/22/charter-school-students-cost-ohio-taxpayers-2-5-times-more/



Quote:
KIPP, Achievement First and Uncommon Schools charter schools in New York City, spend substantially more ($2,000 to $4,300 per pupil) than similar district schools. Given that the average spending per pupil was around $12,000 to $14,000 citywide, a nearly $4,000 difference in spending amounts to an increase of some 30 percent.
Similarly, some charter chains in Texas, such as KIPP, spend substantially more per pupil than district schools in the same city and serving similar populations. In some Texas cities (and at the middle school level), these charters spend around 30 to 50 percent more based on state reported current expenditures. If the data from IRS filings are used, these charters are found to spend 50 to 100 percent more.


http://nepc.colorado.edu/newsletter/2012/05/spending-major-charter
Miller
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Sep, 2012 02:27 pm
@Irishk,
Irishk wrote:

To lighten things up a little, one news agency is reporting that Emanuel went to a church that was providing day care for some of the kids affected and one of them had a sign picturing him with horns Laughing

He's so going to cave Smile


He's Jewish and the horns are a disgrace to him and other Jews.
0 Replies
 
 

 
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