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how to destory cnd.org's blockage on freedom of speech?

 
 
Reply Wed 25 Feb, 2004 02:42 pm
http://my.cnd.org/register.php

this is a chinese site run by chinese living in the usa. you think that they would know the true meaning of freedom of speech. however, they are exactly the same kind of people in the communist party.

they block anyone's account for posting messages that they don't like to read. And worse, they even block the user's ability to read messages from those forums.

is that there anyone to destory their idiotic ban on the freedom of speech, so people can register and express their views freely?

thanks.
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Type: Discussion • Score: 1 • Views: 1,067 • Replies: 17
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ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Feb, 2004 02:48 pm
What are you talking about?

There is no freedom speech issue here. Anyone can restrict the content on their own website anyway they like.

If you come to my house and start blathering about things that I think are idiotic, I have every right to either tell you to be quiet, or to kick you out of my house.

This has nothing to do with freedom of speech.

(BTW the same applies here. The administrator of the site has every legal and moral right to censor anything you say, or to ban you from the site. Be very careful... Wink )
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fishin
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Feb, 2004 02:48 pm
Go study up on what "Free Speech" is for starters. A guarantee of free speech prevents the GOVERNMENT from restraining your speech.

Other than that your speech is limited by what others allow you. If someone runs a WWW site and allows people to post the WWW site owners have the full right to limit and control speech however they choose to. You (and I) as users, have the right not to frequent them if we disagree with how they run their site.
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ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Feb, 2004 02:49 pm
Gee, is there an echo in here?
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youngman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Feb, 2004 02:50 pm
oh, then what is the big deal about chinese government blocking internet web sites?

And what about those proxy stuffs that help chinese to get access to those blocked web sites?
0 Replies
 
fishin
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Feb, 2004 02:51 pm
ebrown_p wrote:
Gee, is there an echo in here?


Wot? Is there an echo in here?? Wink

lol We were just composing at the same time.
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ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Feb, 2004 02:55 pm
The Chinese *government* is very different from the administrator of a web-site.

With a web-site there are *owners* who have every right to decide or restrict what is on their site. As fishin pointed out you have every right to choose to read the contents of the site. You are free to go to other sites (or to start your own) if you are not happy.

This is very different from the restrictions of a "government". The government is trying to prevent people from hearing any content. People are unable to frequent alternative websites (that present an alternative view) nor can they start their own.

You can restrict what is said in a "private" space. It is wrong "in my view" to restrict what is said in public spaces.

Two very different situations.
0 Replies
 
Phoenix32890
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Feb, 2004 02:56 pm
Freedom of Speech refers to the bill of rights, which are amendments to the US Consittution.



Quote:
The Conventions of a number of the States having, at the time of adopting the Constitution, expressed a desire, in order to prevent misconstruction or abuse of its powers, that further declaratory and restrictive clauses should be added, and as extending the ground of public confidence in the Government will best insure the beneficent ends of its institution;

Resolved, by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America, in Congress assembled, two-thirds of both Houses concurring, that the following articles be proposed to the Legislatures of the several States, as amendments to the Constitution of the United States; all or any of which articles, when ratified by three-fourths of the said Legislatures, to be valid to all intents and purposes as part of the said Constitution, namely:


Quote:
Amendment I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances
.


Amendment II
A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.


Amendment III
No soldier shall, in time of peace be quartered in any house, without the consent of the owner, nor in time of war, but in a manner to be prescribed by law.


Amendment IV
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.


Amendment V
No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the militia, when in actual service in time of war or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.


Amendment VI
In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the state and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the assistance of counsel for his defense.


Amendment VII
In suits at common law, where the value in controversy shall exceed twenty dollars, the right of trial by jury shall be preserved, and no fact tried by a jury, shall be otherwise reexamined in any court of the United States, than according to the rules of the common law.


Amendment VIII
Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.


Amendment IX
The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.


Amendment X
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.


As you can see, Freedom of Speech has to do with Congress making laws prohibiting speech. It has absolutely nothing to do with writing on websites, screaming obscenities in bars, or fighting with a salesperson in a store.

It always amazes me that many people have the misperception that freedom of speech means that you can say anthing that you want, anywhere!
0 Replies
 
youngman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Feb, 2004 03:02 pm
same thing to me.
cnd.org even blocks people's access to that particular web site once the reader's account was blocked.

that is so anti-freedom.
0 Replies
 
Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Feb, 2004 03:06 pm
Re: same thing to me.
youngman wrote:
cnd.org even blocks people's access to that particular web site once the reader's account was blocked.

that is so anti-freedom.


One man's freedom is the other's restriction.

They have no moral or legal obligation to let you view one word of their content.

It's theirs, they pay the cost and you have absolutely no moral or legal right to it.

That's kinda like complaining that the neighbours won't let you watch their TV.

Sure it's "anti-freedom" but it is a "freedom" you have no right to.

Laws against murder are "anti-freedom" too. It's yet another "freedom" that one has no moral and legal right to.
0 Replies
 
youngman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Feb, 2004 03:07 pm
well, then it is the same for the chinese people. they have no right to view other web sites. so what is the big deal now?
0 Replies
 
Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Feb, 2004 03:10 pm
That's a horse of a different color. That's when the Chinese government blocks them and not when the owners of said sites blocks them.

See the difference/

Think of it like this, the website pays for every visit. They have to pay for the cost for you to see their site.

If they do not want to allow you to see it they don't have to.

But what the Chinese government does is block Chinese users from visiting sites while the owners of said sites did not make that choice.

So the Chinese government is censoring those sites.

In this case, a web site administrator is preventing you from using his/her resources, which is perfectly within their moral and legal right to do.
0 Replies
 
youngman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Feb, 2004 03:16 pm
same result.
they all have the same result.
the readers just can't get access to those web sites.

There is no difference at all. it is just like 1+3 = 4, or 2+ 2 = 4.
you all get the same result.

then it is wrong to say that what the chinese government did is wrong, and what the cnd.org idiots are doing is very right.

you know what i mean.
0 Replies
 
Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Feb, 2004 03:20 pm
Yes, I know what you mean.

Your behavior on one site caused them to prevent you from accessing it. This is perfectly within their rights and you are complaining about it.

Your anger at them is causing you to deliberately neglect to see the difference between the cases.

It does not matter a whit if the end result is the same to you. Ultimately the cases are very different.

The differences are:

1) There is no government censoring you.
2) The owners of the content do not wish to allow you to see it. They have no obligation under the concept of "free speech" to allow you to.

You confuse "free speech" with "I get whatever I want".
0 Replies
 
youngman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Feb, 2004 03:24 pm
well, the chinese government can censor someone's freedom of speech, and that web site can do the same thing.

they all have the same result.
so why are people criticizing china's "human rights," when it is done right on that web site?
0 Replies
 
Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Feb, 2004 03:41 pm
Look, if you buy a book, and you are reading it on the subway and I walk up to you and demand that you let me read it do you think it is a violation of "free speech" if you do not give it to me? Are you denying me the "right" to read your book at your expense?

Now if a government prohibits anyone from reading that book then it is against the concept of "free speech".

The end result in both cases is that I can't read the book, but there's a difference.

"Free speech" does not mean you get whatever you want. In this case you want to spend that site's money to read content that they own.

They are under no obligation to let you do so.
0 Replies
 
Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Feb, 2004 03:45 pm
Here's the best way I can explain it, understanding it is up to you:

When the government blocks one's access to a site the government is inhibiting other people's speech.

When a site prohibits a user from accessing it they are prohibiting the user from seeing their own speech.

In one case the government is telling people who can stay in your house.

In the other the home owner is kicking out a person whom he doesn't want to tolerate.
0 Replies
 
youngman
 
  1  
Reply Sun 29 Feb, 2004 05:01 pm
well, parents have control on which web sites children can surf, it is exactly the same thing that the chinese government doing. different countries have different views. so they are the same as well.

it is ok to sell pornography at bookstores in the US, and it is prohibited in China.

people just have double standards.
0 Replies
 
 

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