Concern for Religious Freedom or Preaching Political Messages?

@Thomas,

Thomas wrote:

wandeljw wrote:
The conflicting freedom in this specific situation is the freedom from theocracy.

I don't see how theocracy is an issue here. After all, the Catholic Church isn't claiming any power to govern anyone through the force of the state. It is merely protesting against what it sees as an unjust law, and against the politicians who sponsor it. Every organization has that right. How is it theocracy when the Catholic Church exercises it?

I don't know that you can realistically compare the Catholic Church with any other organization. Statistics I'm seeing put it's 'claimed' population at around 1.14 Billion. (2009). The Catholic Church has gotten so used to wielding it's power and influence in world governments that it really no longer has to 'claim' anything. It decrees, and people have to listen.

With that kind of power and influence, it's essentially the same as any large country walking into your buildings of power and saying 'this won't work, redo it'.

3 Replies

@Questioner,

Thomas wrote:

wandeljw wrote:
The conflicting freedom in this specific situation is the freedom from theocracy.

I don't see how theocracy is an issue here. After all, the Catholic Church isn't claiming any power to govern anyone through the force of the state. It is merely protesting against what it sees as an unjust law, and against the politicians who sponsor it. Every organization has that right. How is it theocracy when the Catholic Church exercises it?

Questioner wrote:

I don't know that you can realistically compare the Catholic Church with any other organization. Statistics I'm seeing put it's 'claimed' population at around 1.14 Billion. (2009). The Catholic Church has gotten so used to wielding it's power and influence in world governments that it really no longer has to 'claim' anything. It decrees, and people have to listen.

With that kind of power and influence, it's essentially the same as any large country walking into your buildings of power and saying 'this won't work, redo it'.

If that were TRUE,
then there 'd be no freedom of abortion in America;
probably not even freedom of access to birth control.

David

1 Reply

@OmSigDAVID,

OmSigDAVID wrote:

Thomas wrote:

wandeljw wrote:
The conflicting freedom in this specific situation is the freedom from theocracy.

I don't see how theocracy is an issue here. After all, the Catholic Church isn't claiming any power to govern anyone through the force of the state. It is merely protesting against what it sees as an unjust law, and against the politicians who sponsor it. Every organization has that right. How is it theocracy when the Catholic Church exercises it?

Questioner wrote:
I don't know that you can realistically compare the Catholic Church with any other organization. Statistics I'm seeing put it's 'claimed' population at around 1.14 Billion. (2009). The Catholic Church has gotten so used to wielding it's power and influence in world governments that it really no longer has to 'claim' anything. It decrees, and people have to listen.

With that kind of power and influence, it's essentially the same as any large country walking into your buildings of power and saying 'this won't work, redo it'.
If that were TRUE,
then there 'd be no freedom of abortion in America;
probably not even freedom of access to birth control.

David

That's a bit of a stretch. My point was that the Catholic Church isn't just some organization. There are some things even they can't accomplish in the "land of the free".

2 Replies

@Questioner,

Questioner wrote:

With that kind of power and influence, it's essentially the same as any large country walking into your buildings of power and saying 'this won't work, redo it'.

Here in the U.S., though, only 23% of our population identifies as Catholics. Most of us are Protestants (51%).

2 Replies

@Irishk,

Irishk wrote:

Questioner wrote:
With that kind of power and influence, it's essentially the same as any large country walking into your buildings of power and saying 'this won't work, redo it'.
Here in the U.S., though, only 23% of our population identifies as Catholics. Most of us are Protestants (51%).

Which is still about a quarter of our population. Which re-affirms that the Catholic Church can't be considered the same as 'every organization'.

0 Replies

@Questioner,

Questioner wrote:

That's a bit of a stretch. My point was that the Catholic Church isn't just some organization. There are some things even they can't accomplish in the "land of the free".

The Catholic Church is certainly a much bigger organization than almost any other. But as I understand American law, its size doesn't matter to the legal rights it has in this country. It is a private organization, with the same rights as the ACLU, for example. If an ACLU lawyer can give a speech opposing SOPA, PIPA, and the politicians pushing it, a Catholic bishop can preach a sermon opposing Obamacare. What's sauce for the progressive is sauce for the reactionary.

2 Replies

@Thomas,

Thomas wrote:

Questioner wrote:
That's a bit of a stretch. My point was that the Catholic Church isn't just some organization. There are some things even they can't accomplish in the "land of the free".

The Catholic Church is certainly a much bigger organization than almost any other. But as I understand American law, its size doesn't matter to the legal rights it has in this country. It is a private organization, with the same rights as the ACLU, for example. If an ACLU lawyer can give a speech opposing SOPA, PIPA, and the politicians pushing it, a Catholic bishop can preach a sermon opposing Obamacare. What's sauce for the progressive is sauce for the reactionary.

Except you're forgetting that the ACLU lawyer doesn't have the supposed authority over the souls of his/her followers. There's a huge difference in listening to a propaganda speech and being able to make up one's mind about it, and listening to a pulpit doctrinal speech and knowing you either accept it as truth or you're out of however many generations of culture and upbringing.

The religious establishments hold quite a bit more power over their members than other groups.

1 Reply

@Thomas,

As an aside, it strikes me as a wee bit ironic that some of these same Church leaders wrote similar letters supporting Obamacare.

And, if broken down, I think they're demonstrating a wee bit of overreaction to latest predicament in which they find themselves.

1 Reply

@Questioner,

Questioner wrote:

Except you're forgetting that the ACLU lawyer doesn't have the supposed authority over the souls of his/her followers.

As far as America's federal, state, and local governments are concerned, Catholic bishops don't have that authority either. That's between the church and its members.

0 Replies

@Irishk,

None of my business. I am not a Catholic.

1 Reply

@Thomas,

I'm not a Catholic, either...just a curious bystander who thinks muzzling clergy (except in certain instances already prohibited by law) isn't in my best interests as an ordinary citizen.

1 Reply

@Irishk,

I agree. Same situation here.

WandelJW's demand would impede the free exercise of Catholicism without making a difference to the non-establishment of Catholicism by the state. That's why I oppose his demand. I don't care about Catholicism because I'm an atheist. But I do care about the First Amendment because I'm a permanent resident hoping to become a citizen one day.

1 Reply

@Thomas,

You'd be an asset. I have no powers over such matters, or I'd put you on a fast-track for citizenship.

1 Reply

@Irishk,

Thanks, K.

0 Replies

One big difference between the ACLU and the Catholic Church is that the church is tax-exampt and the ACLU isn't. Tax exemptions carry some specific restrictions. If the Catholics welcom the IRS to take their bit from the collection plate every Sunday (and Tuesday and Wednesday and whenever), then those restrictions won't apply.

And I think you'll make a great US citizen, Thomas. I'd give the INS a glowing character reference for you, should they ever ask.

2 Replies

@MontereyJack,

Me too.

<reading along>

0 Replies

@MontereyJack,

MontereyJack wrote:

And I think you'll make a great US citizen, Thomas. I'd give the INS a glowing character reference for you, should they ever ask.

We all would, Thomas.

I was automatically naturalized at age 8, as soon as both my parents completed their citizenship requirements. I was therefore not asked for a character reference (their mistake).

0 Replies

@Questioner,

OmSigDAVID wrote:

If that were TRUE,
then there 'd be no freedom of abortion in America;
probably not even freedom of access to birth control.

David

Questioner wrote:

That's a bit of a stretch. My point was that the Catholic Church isn't just some organization.
There are some things even they can't accomplish in the "land of the free".

Yes, and the REASON that thay can't
is that thay lack the power that u have falsely attributed to them.

David

0 Replies

@Irishk,

Questioner wrote:

With that kind of power and influence, it's essentially the same as any large country walking into your buildings of power and saying 'this won't work, redo it'.

Irishk wrote:

Here in the U.S., though, only 23% of our population identifies as Catholics. Most of us are Protestants (51%).

Concern for Religious Freedom or Preaching Political Messages?

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