Being on shaky moral grounds at the South Pole.

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In the news a woman at the research base at the South Pole seems to have had a stroke and is asking for a rescue mission to be flown.

Now a few things come to mind everyone who serve at this base knew that they will be cut off from the outside world no matter what for a large percent of a year and are assuming that risk.

When the woman doctor at the base years before came down with breast cancer she ended up operating on herself with mirrors!

Any attempt to send a plane in now will placed the life of a crew of around five and a tens of millions dollars aircraft at large risk.

So my feelings is that this lady is on very shaky moral grounds for pressing for herself being remove before the weather conditions improve.

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@BillRM,

Anyone who goes shoud be a volunteer.
The plane shoud be used ONLY if its owner
is willing to take the chance.

2 Replies

@OmSigDAVID,

Excellent question Bill.

A volunteer or someone who has to sign a waiver indicating the impossibility of such a rescue endeavor.

Like you said David, if the owner AND the pilot (if the pilot is not the owner) is WILLING to take the chance then so be it. But if they are willing to take the chance then the person is out of luck.

Plus any consideration on treatment of the stroke event will have long passed considering it must take a great deal of time getting a plane ready and the flight plan set up and taking the flight (journey) hours to and back to the mainland into account.

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@OmSigDAVID,

David I am not sure but the likely owner of the aircraft would be the US taxpayers or the government would need to agree to cover the insurance cost for such a mission at any rate.

Now whether you could find a crew willing to placed themselves at such risk is it moral for the woman to be asking for them to assume that risk in fact pressing for them to assume that risk?

1 Reply

@BillRM,

Of course it's moral to ask - we have search and rescue teams all around the world, not to mention volunteer and paid firemen, police, the military, coast guard, etc... anyway, they can always say no.

1 Reply

@Mame,

Anyway, why isn't this covered by who she works for? Surely they must have a contingency plan.

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@BillRM,

She's already been there for a while. Her beef is that there is foot-dragging re: getting the rescue set up.

Found the article I read. The stroke happened August 29th, and she's been there since.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/08/science/08southpole.html

Excerpt:

Quote:

“They’re saying the risk is too high,” said Ms. Douceur, who has worked at the South Pole on and off for three years. “But why aren’t you mobilizing and prepositioning planes so that when the weather breaks, you can come get me, instead of just saying, ‘No, you’re O.K., you’re going to wait’? It feels like they’re just stonewalling.”

Treating a stroke victim without access to imaging technology is difficult, said Dr. Walter J. Koroshetz, deputy director at the National Institute of Neurological Disorders and Stroke, because it is impossible to be sure what kind of stroke occurred. “If it’s a blockage of the blood vessel, the damage is done,” he said. But if the problem is a hemorrhaging vessel, more damage could still occur, “because that blood vessel is feeding brain that’s undamaged yet.”

[....]

Ms. Douceur and Raytheon are also tussling over whether a medical attendant should be on the Oct. 17 flight. She says she is worried about the effects of flying on her already oxygen-deprived brain and wants a medical professional on board. Raytheon has offered to send an unspecified “attendant,” she said. The company declined to comment.

I'm not really sure what I think, from the article. I don't think it's as clear-cut as laid out in the OP, but I also am not sure if she's being realistic re: her expectations. If it's too dangerous too fly, it's too dangerous to fly.

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@Mame,

You are at a base that been in existed for a few decades and the known conditions had been no outside help is available for months on end.

She is not just asking the rescue experts she is making it a public issue something the doctor who ended up operating on herself did not do.

If memory serve me correctly they did do an airdrop of some drugs for the doctor but they did not try to removed her from the base itself.

This lady to me is stating that her health is of greater concerns then the lives of an aircraft crew.

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@BillRM,

What are the doctors supposed to do about a stroke after the stroke has happened? The damage is done. She might well not want to do her job anymore but we should not take the risk to remove her when no harm is likely to come to her from staying. These people sign statements to the effect that they are aware that they will not be removed if the risk to others in doing so is grave...she needs to suck it up, playing the victim should not be allowed to work in this case.

1 Reply

@hawkeye10,

The damage is not necessarily done. From my post above:

Quote:

“If it’s a blockage of the blood vessel, the damage is done,” he said. But if the problem is a hemorrhaging vessel, more damage could still occur, “because that blood vessel is feeding brain that’s undamaged yet.”

2 Replies

@sozobe,

Only 25% of strokes are caused by hemorrhaging, and the treatment for these rarely involves surgery, it is done with drugs that are likely available to this woman now. I have seen no indication that she will get better treatment after she gets back then she is now, which should be the starting point for her claims of being a victim.

1 Reply

@sozobe,

If the damage from the stroke had been done or not is beside the point her life is likely not currently at great risk and having an air crew fly is would be placing their lives at great risk.

1 Reply

@BillRM,

BillRM wrote:

So my feelings is that this lady is on very shaky moral grounds for pressing for herself being remove before the weather conditions improve.

I don't see any shaky moral ground here at all. She has the moral right to fight for her life by asking for a rescue mission. On the other side, mission control has the moral right to defend the security of their pilots by pushing back. Hopefully, the balance of both pressures will make them do the right thing, whatever it is.

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@BillRM,

It's not clear that she's demanding that they fly immediately though.

What she's actually quoted as saying is that she wants to see them get ready faster.

That's what I mean about not clear-cut. If she's saying "I don't care if you crash and die, get me out of here immediately!", yes, I think she's being unrealistic.

If she's saying "a rescue operation at the earliest possible time [usually about October 17th] requires preparation, why aren't you doing that preparation so you can get out here as soon as possible?", that makes sense to me.

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@hawkeye10,

The point of what I quoted is that they can't KNOW whether she had a blockage or if she has a hemorrhage, and that they would be able to find out with the proper equipment. Which is not at the South Pole.

1 Reply

@sozobe,

sozobe wrote:

The point of what I quoted is that they can't KNOW whether she had a blockage or if she has a hemorrhage, and that they would be able to find out with the proper equipment. Which is not at the South Pole.

And my point is that the straight odds that leaving the South Pole will matter in her outcome are very poor, which supports not taking undo risk to remove her. I cant find the number but only a slight fraction of 25% of stroke victims need surgery, and all of the other treatments she likely has available to her now.

1 Reply

@BillRM,

I don't think she's on shaky moral ground.

She has the right to ask for speedy assistance.

Search and rescue teams go out in all sorts of conditions to "search" and "rescue" - costing companies, corporations, countries millions

If the Chief S&R says no, the person/corp who hold the purse strings for the aircraft/whatever says no, it's unlikely the mission will go ahead - but sheesh, why shouldn't she ask.

If someone was walking the North Pole, or up a mountain, or on the sea - wherever, if they went missing, or requested help, it is likely, if it's possible to assist, I believe that most S&R folk would want to try.

Every single day folk help to save others lives or assist with their wellbeing in whatever form - oftentimes risking their own lives. People assume risks every time they step out the door.

It doesn't matter if she's there as a voluntary researcher... she has the right to ask and they have the right to refuse.

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@hawkeye10,

If it was an even 25% chance that she needed surgery to avoid severe impairment or death, then Raytheon is acting immorally if they are dragging their feet and not getting her out there as quickly as they realistically can.

If there is even a 99% chance that she needs surgery to save her life, Raytheon is acting immorally (IMO) if they send pilots and personnel into extremely risky circumstances.

That's why the relative safety and expediency is important. If they COULD do it safely October 17th, but they don't want to and they're not doing all they could realistically be doing to get things ready, that's a problem. And that's what I'm not sure of from what I've read thus far.

1 Reply

I do agree with Thomas and Izzie that she has a perfect right to advocate for her own health. I'd think she was being unrealistic if she wants them to pick her up immediately, but still not immoral just for asking.

1 Reply

@sozobe,

sozobe wrote:

I do agree with Thomas and Izzie that she has a perfect right to advocate for her own health. I'd think she was being unrealistic if she wants them to pick her up immediately, but still not immoral just for asking.

Claiming to be a victim when she got into her situation by way of informed consent is not a morally pure path.

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Being on shaky moral grounds at the South Pole.

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