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Under what conditions is it morally acceptable to impose our beliefs on others, if they don’t ask?

 
 
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Sun 31 Jul, 2011 03:02 pm
@igm,
igm wrote:

For example: a moderate or someone with different beliefs deciding whether to confront a fundamentalist when that fundamentalist obviously doesn’t want the person’s opinion. The moderate believes that the fundamentalist’s beliefs have the potential to harm others either directly or indirectly. The exchange could inflame the situation.


Why should the moderate's beliefs carry any more weight than the beliefs of the fundamentalist? where does the moderate obtain the right to confront the fundamentalist?

Offering an opinion or a differing view is one thing. Imposing one's opinions/beliefs/views is a very different matter.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sun 31 Jul, 2011 03:04 pm
I believe that it is never morally acceptable for an individual to impose his/her beliefs on others. It is necessary for the collective to impose belief, but there should be a vast range in the middle where individuals are free to decide for themselves. For instance the extremes should be subject to the criminal or mental health systems, but otherwise the state and individuals only have the right to advocate for their desired outcome of the personal decision. Shaming and shunning are sometimes acceptable and other forms of the excercise of power are sometimes acceptable, the more out of step with the norms the individual opinion the more the use of power is acceptable.

NOTE: Great thread topic.
igm
 
  1  
Reply Sun 31 Jul, 2011 03:11 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

I disagree. The majority of Americans believe in one religion or another that teaches morals. Out of this group, most also understand the laws of the land, but we still have sex crimes. Even well-known politicians are guilty of immoral behavior - including priests, who are supposed to be the teachers and examples of moral behavior. I'm also certain priests also understand sex laws..

Morals should be democratic and secular. If the majority doesn’t want it, then we can't have it. But it will be our loss I believe.
cicerone imposter wrote:

I would like to see proof of your statement that
Quote:
An understanding of what is immoral helps prevent one from becoming a victim or contemplating turning away from being the perpetrator.


I have gone too far it should have read 'may help prevent' but without it there is no chance at all of it helping and that I believe may be detrimental.
igm
 
  1  
Reply Sun 31 Jul, 2011 03:14 pm
@ehBeth,
ehBeth wrote:

igm wrote:

For example: a moderate or someone with different beliefs deciding whether to confront a fundamentalist when that fundamentalist obviously doesn’t want the person’s opinion. The moderate believes that the fundamentalist’s beliefs have the potential to harm others either directly or indirectly. The exchange could inflame the situation.


Why should the moderate's beliefs carry any more weight than the beliefs of the fundamentalist? where does the moderate obtain the right to confront the fundamentalist?

Offering an opinion or a differing view is one thing. Imposing one's opinions/beliefs/views is a very different matter.


Fair point. This was a point made early on by Krumple.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 31 Jul, 2011 03:18 pm
@igm,
As I've already stated, we already have moral teachings within our environment. There is no such thing as "if the majority doesn't want it." That's an extreme approach that has no reality.
igm
 
  1  
Reply Sun 31 Jul, 2011 03:19 pm
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:

I believe that it is never morally acceptable for an individual to impose his/her beliefs on others. It is necessary for the collective to impose belief, but there should be a vast range in the middle where individuals are free to decide for themselves. For instance the extremes should be subject to the criminal or mental health systems, but otherwise the state and individuals only have the right to advocate for their desired outcome of the personal decision. Shaming and shunning are sometimes acceptable and other forms of the excercise of power are sometimes acceptable, the more out of step with the norms the individual opinion the more the use of power is acceptable.

I can't see anything in your statement to disagree with or further elaborate on.
0 Replies
 
igm
 
  1  
Reply Sun 31 Jul, 2011 03:33 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

As I've already stated, we already have moral teachings within our environment. There is no such thing as "if the majority doesn't want it." That's an extreme approach that has no reality.

It's those secular moral teachings that I am pointing to. But if in a democracy, we as a majority want to add or take away some moral teaching then we should as a society have the right to vote on its removal or addition and teach them to our children to help them to develop a moral compass, if as a majority we believe that would help those children.

Views like this aired anonymously in public help inform the debate without the downside of airing views in a place where we are identified and perhaps pigeonholed by family, friends and colleagues for the debatable views we have aired in public. A positive (I believe) unique internet feature that is only now available.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 31 Jul, 2011 04:02 pm
@igm,
Morals do not hinge on religious or secular beliefs.

Most, if not all, cultures teach morals to some extent. They don't teach ethics, but they do teach morals to the majority. It's based on family, friends, church, school, and our ability to observe right from wrong.
0 Replies
 
Krumple
 
  2  
Reply Mon 1 Aug, 2011 07:21 am
@igm,
igm wrote:
Your reply seems reasonable to me. As an aside: are drugs life enhancing? I’d say that the individual’s perception of the experience is the true happiness deliverer and that drugs are therefore a relatively dangerous means to an end, when alternatives which are less dangerous are available. This I believe makes drugs at the very least unnecessary.


Well a huge majority of people like quick results to obtain some happiness and drugs make a very quick method but like you said, a dangerous one. Some are willing to put up with the danger for that quick dose of happiness. I think if you can discover a better method, then by all means it would be more ideal to take it. But once again, if it is not a quick method, people will tend to shy away from it.

I personally don't use drugs or even drink, but I understand them and the freedom for others to choose should remain available. Even those who have determined drug use to be "evil" should not impose their will on others, because that only creates additional "evil" but sadly very few people who view drugs as bad see this aspect. They impose their will onto society and neglect to notice that it has created other problems which they ignore. This is where imposing your belief onto others is immoral.
igm
 
  1  
Reply Mon 1 Aug, 2011 08:27 am
@Krumple,
Krumple wrote:

igm wrote:
Your reply seems reasonable to me. As an aside: are drugs life enhancing? I’d say that the individual’s perception of the experience is the true happiness deliverer and that drugs are therefore a relatively dangerous means to an end, when alternatives which are less dangerous are available. This I believe makes drugs at the very least unnecessary.

Well a huge majority of people like quick results to obtain some happiness and drugs make a very quick method but like you said, a dangerous one. Some are willing to put up with the danger for that quick dose of happiness. I think if you can discover a better method, then by all means it would be more ideal to take it. But once again, if it is not a quick method, people will tend to shy away from it.

I personally don't use drugs or even drink, but I understand them and the freedom for others to choose should remain available. Even those who have determined drug use to be "evil" should not impose their will on others, because that only creates additional "evil" but sadly very few people who view drugs as bad see this aspect. They impose their will onto society and neglect to notice that it has created other problems which they ignore. This is where imposing your belief onto others is immoral.


I don't disagree at all with your observations or your conclusion.
0 Replies
 
bigstew
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Aug, 2011 09:14 am
@igm,
It depends on the nature of moral obligation. If both normative and applied ethics are objective in nature, and others are being harmed, it would seem to follow that because your in a position to at least mitigate that harm you have an obligation to do so. If person doesn't X doesn't listen it isn't your fault, that is on X.

If ethics was just a matter of opinion, there would be no point to even asking the question "should I give advice?" Opinions don't speak to the widely held belief that it either right or wrong to act in a certain way.
0 Replies
 
IRFRANK
 
  3  
Reply Fri 5 Aug, 2011 12:35 pm
@djjd62,
Quote:
a courtroom or a church is the only place i can think of, but only moral in that the majority of folks uphold the beliefs of said institutions

i for one tend to uphold the law (though i don't always follow or agree with it) but disagree vehemently with most ecclesiastical rhetoric


I don't agree with the majority part at all. I assume a majority of people in Germany in the late 30's put Hitler in power. They stood by during the holocaust. I'm sure there's a question about what everyone knew, but the motives were clear and many stood by. Majority does not mean right.

There are other much less extreme examples. There were a lot of people that wanted to beat the crap out of me in the late 60's because I had long hair. Today, it's not much of an issue. (My hair is now mostly gone.)

There were many that thought racial integration was the end of our culture. They were wrong.

Majority does not impose any righteousness.
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Fri 5 Aug, 2011 12:42 pm
@IRFRANK,
Quote:
Majority does not mean right.
But in a democracy the majority should get what they want, right or wrong, the majority of the time. They must be put on the path of righteousness through changing their hearts and minds, not by oppression.
IRFRANK
 
  4  
Reply Fri 5 Aug, 2011 01:47 pm
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
But in a democracy the majority should get what they want, right or wrong, the majority of the time. They must be put on the path of righteousness through changing their hearts and minds, not by oppression.


I don't agree. In a civil society the rule of law must protect all of us from majority extremism.

There are countless examples of abuse by the majority. That abuse results in destruction to the whole society.

You may be right in the definition of a pure democracy, but I don't agree that is the best form of government.

JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Aug, 2011 03:48 pm
@IRFRANK,
Purity of ideology is another word for extremism, and that's a synonymn for absolutism; and they are all forms of stupidity.
I'm a cultural relativist, indeed an anti-absolutist in virtually all categories of thought. At the same time I'm not pure regarding some categories. I would impose myself (i.e., my cultural values) on a society that practices clitorectomies without worrying about its violation of my relativism.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Aug, 2011 03:53 pm
@JLNobody,
Quote:
. I would impose myself (i.e., my cultural values) on a society that practices clitorectomies without worrying about its violation of my relativism
Hopefully they would tell you to **** off and mind your own business, and if you insisted on imposing your will by force that they would attempt to shame you into breaking off your attack, as well as resist your attack.
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Aug, 2011 03:55 pm
@JLNobody,
You're double trouble, JLN..

(I think that when you post a reply, you may click twice instead of once, but I'm not sure that's the cause of the doubles.)

Glad to see you again, Frank.
0 Replies
 
reasoning logic
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Aug, 2011 03:55 pm
@JLNobody,
I don't blame you I would not want one of those neither!
0 Replies
 
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Aug, 2011 04:19 pm
@JLNobody,
...thankfully your post is so self contradictory that you end up recognizing that you are just as much a relativist as anybody else in the planet...after all you are not so delusional as you may seem...there is hope for you !
0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Aug, 2011 04:22 pm
@IRFRANK,
IRFRANK wrote:

Quote:
But in a democracy the majority should get what they want, right or wrong, the majority of the time. They must be put on the path of righteousness through changing their hearts and minds, not by oppression.


I don't agree. In a civil society the rule of law must protect all of us from majority extremism.

There are countless examples of abuse by the majority. That abuse results in destruction to the whole society.

You may be right in the definition of a pure democracy, but I don't agree that is the best form of government.



My sentiments also.
0 Replies
 
 

 
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