What makes a person convert to religious belief?

@existential potential,

Notice how you only 'picked out' bits and pieces of my words and declared the rest as 'rants'. That's a big hint, and a testament to YOUR con-fusion.

Just for kicks, look up 'con' and 'fusion' in the dictionary.

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@JPLosman0711,

hmm, but it still stand that what you said about every experience being "planned" consciously or sub-consciously is total non-sense, unless what you mean by "planning" refers to consciously or sub-consciously imposing memories of past experiences onto the present, in which case you kind of "plan" what it is that you apparently "experience".

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@existential potential,

You're still 'picking out', bits and pieces of THE TOTALITY of that which was expressed from my Be-ing, just as I suspect you do with your 'Self'.

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@JPLosman0711,

so my criticism of your comment is therefore invalid?

I have picked this bit out of your comments because I have taken particular issue with it, because it makes no sense.

you now have a choice, either comment directly on what I have said about that particualr comment, or ignore it.

what do you mean by "planning". a child at birth, fro example, had not "planned" to choose to experience the things that it experiences at birth. many of our experiences are not "planned"; accidents, cancer, death of others, we don't "plan" to experience these things, but they happen. so what on earth are you on about when you say:

"everything you experience is consciously or sub-consciously "planned"

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@existential potential,

Dig those heels in and place that 'game' up there all you like(the game that only you can win) I wish not to partake in your con-fusion.

I already know my statements are accurate, otherwise I would not be able to type them. I know, and I know that I know.

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@JPLosman0711,

"It is an excuse to 'live' anywhere but the present"- as physical beings, we are always living in the present, but for most of our lives, we are looking forward, into the "future", we anticipate things, or we reflect about things that have happened to us. we rarely actually do live in the present in some sense, because we are constantly looking to the future, and most of our actions are directed toward some kind of future state of affairs.

in any case, what else can we do but "live" in the present moment? but in another sense, we are future oriented, in our actions and choices.

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@existential potential,

That's just it, your 'mind' is ahead of your body, you preject it into a non-existent future. This is what makes everything so problematic, social intercourse FORCES 'you' to act as an individual agent independant of that which you experience.

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@Setanta,

Setanta wrote:

Well, "Realist," while you're on about self-deception here, don't forget the self-deception, and the smugness, of telling one's self that one only does things because of one's reason.

You are right about it no doubt. I agree with you on this. See my original post. It is implied in that.

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@JPLosman0711,

JP, I'm wondering what you think of :
- building skill levels
- reviewing ones actions, contributing factors, and results; and of
- envisioning process?
I find myself almost agreeing with what you say of thinking of the past putting life on hold, but it appears that view may come from a perspective I find odd.

Existential Potential wrote:

reason puts life on hold? I would rather possess reason, even if it did momentarily put "life on hold" if that ment that I could ensure I make as few a mistakes as possible, rather than living without reason, and possibly doing something stupid.

I can’t help being reminded of elite sports where the person or team who plays to ‘not make mistakes’ usually end up making more mistakes than a similarly skilled team/person who plays to ‘make the best play possible’, while those that play ‘not to lose’ usually end up losing to those that play ‘to win’.

JPLosman0711 wrote:

When I put need in parenthesis, I do so because there NO SUCH THING as 'needs' - we call them needs because our own intellectualizing ontilogically distinguished(independantly existing thinking) minds feel the need to 'push the totality of its being' around so to speak.

Lol, if the word ‘needs’ doesn’t exist, then there is no such thing as language and all your talk is just meaningless jibber jabber. If the concept of ‘needs’ doesn’t exist (hunger anyone?), then you are arguing semantics because your concept does not match someone else’s concept, making it a meaningless conversation.

Quote:

Due to either the delusion of time

It’s odd that our bodies need sleep in a roughly rythmic pattern to the ‘delusion’ of time, and that eventually the ‘delusion’ kills us of old age. It seems even our bodies ‘believe’ in it. If your objection is that time is only a 'concept' that we use to order our lives, then that's a fair observation, but hardly a reason to make a negatively labelled philosophy out of it....and insisting on such would lead to whether the concept of 'delusions' exists.

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@JPLosman0711,

this is just my own opinion, but I think it may relate to some of what you said-

when we "make choices", or deliberate between differing courses of action, we "remove ourselves" from the world momentarily. when we stop and reflect, or reason about the various choices that are open to us, we create a distinction between "self" and "world", and in contemplating our choices we contemplate how our "self" may be constituted. It is this process of removing “oneself” from the world that is the root of lifelessness, because we suddenly stop "living in the moment", and lose our "engagement" with the world.

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Very interesting question. My wife had an experience in the hospital about two years ago and she felt that Jesus came to her. I think it was a morphine dream with her daughter and daughter's pastor whispering in her ear. I think it is terrible that those people would take advantage of her in that state, which they no doubt did. I have a witness. But anyway, there is no doubt in my wife's newfound belief. It has been good for her, too. She's quit drinking alcohol completely, which was sometimes a problem before. She has gotten involved in the community and volunteers to help others. Overall she is more calm and less stressed out. So, I'd say it has been a good thing.

All of this is not enough for me, though. I just can't bring myself to believe it's all no more than myths and propaganda. I see too many people take advantage of others through religion. But that doesn't make Jesus bad, just those people. I also just do not believe there is any divine intervention. It seems to me that if there is, it would be much more obvious than it is. But, maybe I'm too blind to see, as they say?

I've read a lot of religious material and the one thing I found that I do believe is the truth and absolutely the right way to live is Buddhism. Buddha's teachings are clearly the truth and require no belief in supernatural powers. Buddha found the middle way, the right way to live and interact with one's fellow man. At least that's my belief. It works for me.

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@existential potential,

Critical thinking skills overwhelmed by emotional need?

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desperate people sometimes do desperate things

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Religion looks at some of the same questions and problems addressed by science and philosophy from a different perspective. Religion looks at what it means to be a human, focuses on miracles such as birth or the good deeds performed by people, the harmony and order of nature and all the creatures that are part of it, the relationships between people, the tragedy and meaning of death and it offers a formal guide to leading an ethical lifestyle for the duration of one's lifetime. Religion can fill a void for many people and promote a more meaningful life for many, especially those who endure a lot of pain and suffering. Most likely the decision to convert to a religion by a previously non-religious person would be to help them lead a more meaningful life. Religion is based on faith, not irrefutable facts.

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@seashell,

seashell wrote:

Religion looks at some of the same questions and problems addressed by science and philosophy from a different perspective. Religion looks at what it means to be a human

I find nothing in Religion that looks at what it means to be Human

Quote:

focuses on miracles such as birth or the good deeds performed by people, the harmony and order of nature and all the creatures that are part of it, the relationships between people, the tragedy and meaning of death and it offers a formal guide to leading an ethical lifestyle for the duration of one's lifetime.

religion is an ethical lifestyle ? oh please

the vatican is worth billions of dollars , yet they still ask for donations for saving destitute people

Quote:

Religion can fill a void for many people and promote a more meaningful life for many, especially those who endure a lot of pain and suffering. Most likely the decision to convert to a religion by a previously non-religious person would be to help them lead a more meaningful life. Religion is based on faith, not irrefutable facts.

a more meaningful life would be doing good towards Humanity because we are all Human and to respect our ancestors

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@north,

North wrote:

I find nothing in Religion that looks at what it means to be Human

Science has for quite some time, ignored the spiritual aspect of humans (however you would like to define spirituality). Strangely enough, psychologists are moving more and more towards what the mystics have been saying for quite some time (that’s ‘towards’ not ‘saying what mystics have been saying’). Religion incorporates aspects of human spirituality that science does not.

Seashell wrote:

Religion is based on faith, not irrefutable facts.

I would say that religion is based more on spirituality, shared emotions, and sociology.

Seashell wrote:

Religion can fill a void for many people and promote a more meaningful life for many, especially those who endure a lot of pain and suffering.

North wrote:

a more meaningful life would be doing good towards Humanity because we are all Human and to respect our ancestors

Doing good works by themselves do not provide meaning. If you find meaning in ‘we are all human and should respect our ancestors’ then fine, but I doubt it’s a meaning that would ring a note with the majority of humanity.

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@vikorr,

in what way have psychologists been "moving towards what the mystics have been saying"?

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@existential potential,

Hah, I was wondering if someone would ask that. I can't truly answer that for you.

What I can say is that I've read 200+ different books on communications, human emotions, the subconconscious, self hypnosis, dreams, negotions, manipulative people, awareness, self deception, etc., and most of them were written by psychologists. What was fascinating, especially considering the timelines of when the books were written, is how they started showing more and more obvious signs of / similarities to, eastern mysticism.

They of course kept their research findings, and anecdotal evidence etc, but even science was moving towards saying what the mystics had been saying - particularly in relation to how the subconscious mind works. There's even a forum now between leading mind experts and eastern mystics - but I'm out of time - look for it when I get back from work.

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The individual's need for an external factor to guide or steer them. They want or need or do feel connected to something they can't sense and they fit this to the belief constracture that best suites them; which may be why there are (at my last count) over 5,000 faith systems in the world today.

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@vikorr,

I'll be waiting....

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What makes a person convert to religious belief?

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