15
   

Mediocre students make the “good effort” honor list

 
 
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Jul, 2010 08:58 am
@engineer,
engineer wrote:
When I'm working with engineers of my generation or older, we routinely do basic math to a couple of significant digits in our heads while working out problems. I just watch the younger engineers struggle with the basic math. It's not that they don't know how to do it, just that they can't do it as second nature and it becomes a stumbling block. I remember one extrememly bright engineer who had to pause the discussion to open a spreadsheet to do a very basic math problem. I was stunned.

Hmm... When I attended engineering courses back in the late '80s early '90s, we were taught to always use a calculator if one was available.
engineer
 
  3  
Reply Thu 22 Jul, 2010 09:08 am
@DrewDad,
We had one class with the dean of Chem Eng. He would occasionally start class by throwing out a problem and asking the students to approximate an answer without paper or calculator. One example: What is the mass of water flowing through the Mississippi? Part of the exercise was just to see how well you could construct the problem, part was to see if you had a feel for units and magnitudes, part was to train you to think on your feet. He always went off on students who presented ridiculous answers because they made a calculator or units error. His issue was not the error itself, but the idea of not recognizing that you were off by orders of magnitude. Of course you should calculate precisely when preparing final plans, but in my experience it helps to be able to brainstorm to one or two significnat digits without having to pull out the calculator.
ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Jul, 2010 09:32 am
@engineer,
That is a different type of problem that requires creativity, not rote memorization. I do those types of problems just fine. If you want to get good at doing these kinds of problems you need to enjoy them (which I do).

engineer
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Jul, 2010 10:44 am
@ebrown p,
True, but my earlier point was that solving problems that require creativity is much harder if you keep getting hung up on the mechanics. Those rote memorization excercises give you the building blocks so that you can focus on the fun stuff. I'm sure athletes don't particularly care to warm up or run drills. Likewise a musician probably doesn't take great pleasure in playing scales. Still, they teach them because without those fundamentals it's hard to succeed at the things that are important. Multiplication tables and verb tenses are just building blocks. The might be boring, but they support the weight of later work.
ebrown p
 
  0  
Reply Thu 22 Jul, 2010 11:05 am
@engineer,
Engineer...

First, I have problem with your terminology. Mastering the mechanics is a broad term that is not synonymous with memorizing tables. I certainly think that being able to add two numbers together is important and would qualify as "mechanics".

Let me start a principle: Education should be focused on giving the learner what she needs to be productive and successful. (I will leave the definition of "productivity" and "success", but hopefully you agree with the basic point... education is to benefit the learner).

My personal experience says that rote memorization of multiplication tables is an exercise that can be skipped on the path to mastery of mathematics. I believe there is plenty research that backs this up (although I don't have the energy to dig it up right now).

I will agree that some tedious exercises are useful for mastery. I feel strongly that not all tedious exercises lead to mastery.

It is clear that goal-centered, learner driven education is often quite effective (I am not saying that it is always effective, or that other forms of education aren't appropriate at times).

But, you have certainly learned things based on your own goals and driven only by the pure desire for knowledge. You learned your first language this way. You learned an incredible amount of stuff, driven only by curiosity, before we stuffed you in a classroom and told you you had to perform based on grades.

And, for that matter, what have you learned lately? I assume (at least I hope so) that you are still learning things, without being graded or told how to learning them. Learning in this way is part of life. In addition to Poker, I am learning very complex and important skills including gardening and parenting (no rote memorization to master the mechanics of either).

Learner driven education doesn't mean you don't end up memorizing math values, or verb-tenses. It does mean that you start with the end in mind. I have certainly had flash cards to learn Spanish... and I did memorize verb tenses, but I did this because I understood the need for them-- and I didn't start until I understood the need for them.

The said myth of our education system is that learning isn't natural. This is why we push so much meaningless stuff on students, and this is why we feel the need to give grades, a completely artificial measure of how much we know.





engineer
 
  3  
Reply Thu 22 Jul, 2010 12:01 pm
@ebrown p,
ebrown p wrote:

First, I have problem with your terminology. Mastering the mechanics is a broad term that is not synonymous with memorizing tables. I certainly think that being able to add two numbers together is important and would qualify as "mechanics".

If adding qualifies as mechanics, why not multiplication? My point is not that you can't pull out a calculator when confronted with 9x6, it is that your ability to work on more complicated problems is hampered because you have to take out a calculator to do it.

ebrown p wrote:
Let me start a principle: Education should be focused on giving the learner what she needs to be productive and successful. (I will leave the definition of "productivity" and "success", but hopefully you agree with the basic point... education is to benefit the learner).

My personal experience says that rote memorization of multiplication tables is an exercise that can be skipped on the path to mastery of mathematics. I believe there is plenty research that backs this up (although I don't have the energy to dig it up right now).

I will agree that some tedious exercises are useful for mastery. I feel strongly that not all tedious exercises lead to mastery.

Ok, but the problem is that the educator doesn't know which tedious exercises will be the ones that work for each individual child and the child doesn't have the experience to decide for himself. In hindsight, multiplication tables weren't necessary for you, but you couldn't foresee that when you were seven. In college, one of my professors said something to the effect that we would only use 10% of what we would learn in college in our careers. His problem was that he didn't know what 10% that was. Likewise is giving the learner "what she needs to be productive and successful", we by necessity must build a broader base than what would be absolutely required if we could see the future and understand the adult that the child in front of us will develop into.

ebrown p wrote:
It is clear that goal-centered, learner driven education is often quite effective (I am not saying that it is always effective, or that other forms of education aren't appropriate at times).

That probably has a very specific meaning for you, but it seems very vague to me. I certainly support allowing children to leap ahead on things they have a strong interest it, but it is also useful (or even necessary) to expose them to things they have no initial interest in if only to broaden their education. If you love math, you still need to be able to write. You might never know if you like music without trying it. Exposure to a sport in PE might be the start of a life-long love affair. I think you must balance "learner driven" with adult experience to get that "goal-centered" part correct.

ebrown p wrote:
But, you have certainly learned things based on your own goals and driven only by the pure desire for knowledge. You learned your first language this way. You learned an incredible amount of stuff, driven only by curiosity, before we stuffed you in a classroom and told you you had to perform based on grades.

But I also learned things in school that I wasn't particularly interested in that enriched my life as I grew older. Once again, it is a balance of breadth and depth. Curiosity will drive us to a deep understanding but a superficial understanding in other areas is also important to support the entire educational structure.
ebrown p wrote:
And, for that matter, what have you learned lately? I assume (at least I hope so) that you are still learning things, without being graded or told how to learning them.

Yes, but the base is in place now. From a solid foundation, I can expand as I choose. Without that base, I think I would be limited in my ability to follow my interests.
ebrown p wrote:
Learner driven education doesn't mean you don't end up memorizing math values, or verb-tenses. It does mean that you start with the end in mind. I have certainly had flash cards to learn Spanish... and I did memorize verb tenses, but I did this because I understood the need for them-- and I didn't start until I understood the need for them.

But isn't the curriculum already designed this way? Just because a child doesn't understand what is required to achieve the goal, that doesn't mean that the adults that designed the system don't. If they started with a goal in mind and developed a broad based curriculum that allowed the majority of students to get there, isn't that what you are suggesting? That every facet of the curriculum is not applicable to every student doesn't invalidate the approach.
ebrown p wrote:
The said myth of our education system is that learning isn't natural. This is why we push so much meaningless stuff on students, and this is why we feel the need to give grades, a completely artificial measure of how much we know.

I doubt that any teacher or school administrator would agree with the statement that learning isn't natural. Giving grades and aptitude tests allow educators to identify weak spots and provide extra challenges to those ready to accept them. Does that mean the system is perfect? Certainly not, but I disagree with your broad denunciation of the entire system because it is not optimal for every student. We have a system that is designed to work for a broad swath of the population. I'm sure you could skim a layer of students with similar interests or capabilities and design a better system just for them (and magnet schools do) but if you need a perscription for the general population, I think the existing, broad based system is pretty good, at least in theory.
ebrown p
 
  0  
Reply Thu 22 Jul, 2010 01:04 pm
@engineer,
Quote:
My point is not that you can't pull out a calculator when confronted with 9x6, it is that your ability to work on more complicated problems is hampered because you have to take out a calculator to do it.


Sure, and if it comes up enough, at some point I will start remembering what 9x6 is.

Quote:
he problem is that the educator doesn't know which tedious exercises will be the ones that work for each individual child and the child doesn't have the experience to decide for himself.


I disagree. Kids figure out what they need to know by trying to do the things they want to do. If not knowing the multiplication facts starts to be a problem, they will either start memorizing it ... or more likely, the problems that are encountered multiple times solving important (i.e. non tedious) problems will be retained naturally.

It is also not like we are condemning a human being to a lifetime of not knowing the multiplication tables if we don't ram it down their throats at age 8. I am in my early 40s.... I could learn them pretty quickly if I ever decide I need to.

This tedious exercise is not very important nor urgent. The downside is that we are giving kids a completely incorrect understanding of what math is about (which for some kids is a turnoff).

We are teaching kids that "math is tedious" -- this is a lesson that many adults still hang on to.

Quote:
I certainly support allowing children to leap ahead on things they have a strong interest it, but it is also useful (or even necessary) to expose them to things they have no initial interest in if only to broaden their education. If you love math, you still need to be able to write. You might never know if you like music without trying it. Exposure to a sport in PE might be the start of a life-long love affair. I think you must balance "learner driven" with adult experience to get that "goal-centered" part correct.


I agree with this.... exposure to all sorts of subjects is part of education and something I want for myself and my kids.

What I disagree with is this.... if you want to give me an introductory course on music, you don't sit me down and start with scales. If I am going to master music, then you are first going to have me listen to great music... and then you are going to put an instrument in my hand.

When I develop the appreciation of music... and get the desire to play like Dizzy Gillespie, then sure, I am going to have to learn scales... but at this point I will have already understood what I am doing and I will know exactly what the scales are for.

I feel strongly that this is how humans tick... we are driven by purpose and motivated by desire. Let me understand why I am working hard and then I will do what it takes to master it.

In math, we do this completely backwards... Kids aren't shown the beauty of math, they aren't shown the power of math. What we do is give them a bunch of the rote actions of math and tell them it will be important later.

I know this from experience... by the time kids reach high school, we have basically squashed their mathematical curiosity and have taken away the joy of discovery. Math is taught as a bunch of things to memorize... and for most people, this is all it ever is (people who go on to careers in math learn in spite of, not because of, the crap they are given to do in school).



littlek
 
  2  
Reply Thu 22 Jul, 2010 01:27 pm
@Joe Nation,
Joe, the girl was drilled. She didn't just work hard in class taking notes. She also prepared (wrote out) study notes based on the study guide given out by the teacher. I reviewed the notes and made corrections here and there. She made flash cards and quizzed herself. Every student is allowed to rewrite their answers to bring their grade up to a 70%. She did that, with my help, every time. We broke down the questions, thought about appropriate vocabulary to add to the answer, and added detail to bring her grades up. The tests were always the same format and always very closely resembled the study guide prepared by the teacher.

She can tell me answers, orally, like how the blood flows through the body and heart if I ask the right questions. She even made unusual connections on a high level sometimes. She just couldn't pass those tests.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Jul, 2010 01:30 pm
@littlek,
Quote:
She can tell me answers, orally, like how the blood flows through the body and heart if I ask the right questions. She even made unusual connections on a high level sometimes. She just couldn't pass those tests.
that is very cruel to leave her in an environment that she can not handle. Giving her an fake honor award is not going to help anything.
0 Replies
 
littlek
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Jul, 2010 01:31 pm
@Linkat,
Linkat, the article is a bit simplistic in its description of the effort honor role? I googled "effort honor role" and found a school who listed the characteristics of a student who could achieve that honer. They weren't as limited as described in the article.
Linkat
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Jul, 2010 02:05 pm
@littlek,
I think what I was trying to get at just in general and using this article as an example - it seems that more and more we are rewarding our children just for being - not accomplishing.

I'm not saying this may not be a good idea, but honestly I think it should not be compared with an academic achievement honor role. I think it diminishes each of the values of them.

My kids' school does give out an award for best effort. I think it is appropriate and it is very limited so it is an actual achievement - not a "second best" for those who not as academically gifted.

The school also gives out a whole bunch of "fluff" awards so everyone gets an award. They are basically meaningless and the thing is (as nice as they are trying to be in giving them) the kids know it.
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Jul, 2010 08:13 pm
@Linkat,
Linkat wrote:

I kinda agree with on this. The only thing I don't like is the curve thing where you do a percentage gets A, B, C, etc. My issue with it is you could potentially have more than 5% students that are incredible and deserve the A in one class and the opposite result in another. So you because you have a class of "dummies" you need to award one with an A to meet a quota when most deserve a D for instance.

Right - but in that class I took where I got the highest grade with a B+, the professor thought no one earned an A..
My impression is that curves changed in the late sixties, and a bigger percentage got Bs and As than before. But... that's just what I was tuned in to re discussion going on at my school; don't know if that happened across the board. People were very agitated about the whole grading thing being over emphasized, right about '65.



I do agree that the standards should be higher, where in theory a small amount get As and so forth - more the work should be more difficult. My kids' school have a slightly different grading system than what I've seen typical in other schools - you have to get a 94 average or higher in order to an "A"; 84 - 93 is a "B", etc. This boosts up the expections at each grade level.
0 Replies
 
Joe Nation
 
  1  
Reply Fri 23 Jul, 2010 08:06 pm
@littlek,
ogod, I know her, K.

Able to talk accurately about any studied subject but unable to write anything coherent.

(She will make a wonderful live TV reporter.)
(no kidding, that's where I know her from. We had reporters who could spew a full minute and ten seconds of factual information at a camera but could not write a three sentence intro to the material.)

I am one of those people who think that certain people need to be tested in ways other than the usual written form. Every time I say this to overworked teachers, I get a large amount of eye-rolling.

One reporter left to become a preacher. It was a perfect job fit.

Joe(except he had to go from reporting facts to spouting fiction.)Nation
0 Replies
 
aidan
 
  1  
Reply Fri 23 Jul, 2010 11:00 pm
@littlek,
Quote:
She can tell me answers, orally, like how the blood flows through the body and heart if I ask the right questions. She even made unusual connections on a high level sometimes. She just couldn't pass those tests.

If she has a diagnosed written language disability - maybe she's not comprehending the question as she reads it. In the school I worked in, if the test given was in a content area and not specifically testing her reading or writing ability, students could be assigned a special services teacher or aid to act as a reader and scribe, ie- a person to read the question so the learner is definitely clear about what's being asked and someone to write the answer, if the question is not multiple choice.
In this way you are actually getting an accurate read of the student's understanding of the content area instead of one that is possibly influenced more by their lack of ability to comprehend written questions or inability to write a comprehensible answer.

I did this and still do this many times in math classes because you have a student who knows the math, but when they read the problem, they're not comprehending what is being asked of them. When I read it to them they say, 'Oh - is that what they're asking me to do?' and they almost always show that they know how to do the math.

She must also have horrible test anxiety at this point. I guess the year's over now - but maybe suggestions could be made at her next annual IEP meeting to implement some accomodations like a reader, scribe and/or additional time on tests to address her specific learning disabilities and help her feel that she has a fighting chance as she heads toward highschool.

aidan
 
  1  
Reply Fri 23 Jul, 2010 11:34 pm
@ebrown p,
Quote:
What I disagree with is this.... if you want to give me an introductory course on music, you don't sit me down and start with scales. If I am going to master music, then you are first going to have me listen to great music... and then you are going to put an instrument in my hand.

When I develop the appreciation of music... and get the desire to play like Dizzy Gillespie, then sure, I am going to have to learn scales... but at this point I will have already understood what I am doing and I will know exactly what the scales are for.

I think you underestimate the wonderful way that most children are innately driven by a natural curiosity to learn. And I think you also underestimate the role individual aptitude plays in whether a person is drawn to a subject- or not.
I started piano lessons when I was eight years old - no one had to 'sit me down' and have me 'listen to great music' to get me to want to play the piano.
My mother bought a piano. She enrolled all four girls in piano lessons(for some reason the boys were excused from having to learn an instrument - maybe she thought it wasn't manly or something). We'd all lived in the same house listening to our parents play the same music for the same amount of time. Two of us took to the lessons and slogged through to the final goal of being able to play and two didn't.
It wasn't that the two who didn't take to them didn't understand what scales are for. It was that they just weren't interested enough in playing music themselves to do the work.
And now that I think of it - the two of us who stuck with the lessons and still play are the two who play music in our own homes, all the time. I'd be surprised if the other two own a cd player- I never hear music playing at their houses.

I was so jazzed to have the opportunity to learn an instrument- two of my sisters could have cared less- individual differences.

Quote:
I feel strongly that this is how humans tick... we are driven by purpose and motivated by desire. Let me understand why I am working hard and then I will do what it takes to master it.

In math, we do this completely backwards... Kids aren't shown the beauty of math, they aren't shown the power of math. What we do is give them a bunch of the rote actions of math and tell them it will be important later.


I disagree with this- at least in my experience. I can vividly remember being given paper that was marked off in 100 squares and being shown how to color it in to represent 5+5 (5 red squares + 5 red squares=10 red squares) and then below it shown how 5+5 is the same thing as 2 5's so that 2X5 also equals 10 squares.
I loved doing that - filling that paper with these colored squares to represent equivalent addition and multiplication problems.

But I'm sure other kids hated doing that- that doesn't mean the teacher didn't try.

Because, especially with math - you need the basic tools. If you can't remember your multiplication tables, going on to division, fractions, ratios and percentages, geometry and algebra, is going to be slow and tedious torture. If you have to stop to use a calculator to remember that 9 is a factor of 54 everytime you want to simplify a fraction, you're gonna give up. I would have and I love math.
Because when you're doing basic math facts (up to the 12 times tables) the calculator definitely slows you down. A person can do one digit by one digit faster in their head than they can press the buttons on the calculator.

And to bring it back to music, if you can't remember the fingering or notes on a piece of music, if you can't play the scales fluidly - the song is interrupted so much that it doesn't even sound like the song you set out to play anymore so you're not going to keep at it. It's too tedious.

If anything, I think they should spend more time and make sure kids know their multiplication tables thoroughly before expecting them to want to do any sort of higher level math.

And you can make it fun.

Quote:
I know this from experience... by the time kids reach high school, we have basically squashed their mathematical curiosity and have taken away the joy of discovery. Math is taught as a bunch of things to memorize... and for most people, this is all it ever is (people who go on to careers in math learn in spite of, not because of, the crap they are given to do in school).

People who go on to do higher math do it because they love solving puzzles. Some people like puzzles. Some people hate them. Some people see and hear patterns. Some people don't.

I think it has as much to do with having a math brain or not having a math brain as it has to do with being a musical person or not being a musical person.

I wouldn't blame it all on the teaching.
ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Fri 23 Jul, 2010 11:48 pm
@aidan,
Quote:
Because, especially with math - you need the basic tools. If you can't remember your multiplication tables, going on to division, fractions, ratios and percentages, geometry and algebra, is going to be slow and tedious torture.


This is clearly untrue. There are many people, myself included, who have mastered mathematics, earned mathematical or scientific degrees and gone onto successful math based careers without ever memorizing multiplication tables.

From early on, I wanted to focus on the ideas and I rejected the efforts to get me to focus on process. Because of this, I received rather poor grades on many of my math courses. Yet I excelled whenever I was tested. Fortunately my high school had an alternative math course that went through calculus. Once I was there, I did quite well.

Yes, I understand that different people learn differently... I have met many very mathematical people who tell very similar stories. To say that it will always be "slow and tedious" is clearly wrong.

But my real conviction on this topic comes from my experience teaching physics in high school.

There was a group of students with very high GPA's who had a very troubling (to me) trait-- they had memorized a set of problems-- kind of like Mad Libs. As long as I gave them a problem they had seen before, and gave them clues, they would fill in the blanks and turn the crank perfectly.

The trouble with this is that they were completely unable to think mathematically. What they were doing wasn't anything like what mathematicians do-- they had a set of recipes that they could not deviate from.

These were very hard working students who had worked so hard that they had never had to think or to understand what they were doing.

This was very frustrating for me as a teacher.
aidan
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 Jul, 2010 12:27 am
@ebrown p,
Quote:
Yes, I understand that different people learn differently... I have met many very mathematical people who tell very similar stories. To say that it will always be "slow and tedious" is clearly wrong.


Or maybe you just have more perseverence than others- and obviously you had more than average interest in learning math- that's exactly what I'm saying- you had an aptitude, so you were more willing than the next student to stick with it.

I also think it's quite telling that you say that you refused to learn them. It was by your choice that you didn't learn them. You could have if you wanted to. And you refused to do this, because your brain, having an aptitude for math, was able to readily grasp the concepts behind and represented by the mechanics and fundamentals.
Other students aren't so lucky. Especially at the ages of five, six, and seven when abstract reasoning and thought is only beginning to replace concrete reasoning and thought.

The people I'm talking about who would find learning math slow and tedious if they had to stop every two seconds to use a calculator to complete a problem are your more average people/students who don't progress in math any further than they have to to graduate highschool - Algebra II or Trig. For those people, who do not have an affinity or talent for math, but simply have to do it to graduate, I see not preparing them adequately to do what they have to do in the simplest and most efficent way as doing them a disservice.
Because they'd probably rather spend the time they'd waste stopping and starting with a calculator to complete a basic algebra question, reading history.

Quote:

But my real conviction on this topic comes from my experience teaching physics in high school.

There was a group of students with very high GPA's who had a very troubling (to me) trait-- they had memorized a set of problems-- kind of like Mad Libs. As long as I gave them a problem they had seen before, and gave them clues, they would fill in the blanks and turn the crank perfectly.

The trouble with this is that they were completely unable to think mathematically. What they were doing wasn't anything like what mathematicians do-- they had a set of recipes that they could not deviate from.

These were very hard working students who had worked so hard that they had never had to think or to understand what they were doing.

This was very frustrating for me as a teacher



And this is where we come back to the topic. People want the grades - hell the parents want the kids to get the grades- and the grades become the goal.
Do the parents say, 'Oh, I am so proud of you that you learned so much Chemistry! I can look at you as knowing more chemistry than I ever learned - I only learned enough Chemistry to get a C (and that's true for me!). You have a really thorough and excellent understanding of chemistry now! That is quite an achievement!
No they just look at the report card and are happy the kid got the grade to go on to the next step. Most don't even stop to consider what their kids do and don't know.
And that's what the goal is supposed to be- that they become educated. That they know more than they started out knowing.
And for some parents and children - the only important goal is an A on a piece of paper- what they know or don't know is secondary.

That's why I like the grading scale as it is over here.

Pass with merit - yes- it equals a C. But in America a C is average or barely acceptable these days. Here it assigns 'Merit'. It explains that you did the work - and that you deserve recognition or 'merit' for having done the work.
littlek
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 Jul, 2010 08:14 am
@aidan,
She had a communications disorder. She was nearly booted off her ed plan but I argued fairly strongly that she not be booted off. She did not have accommodations for alternate tests.
0 Replies
 
ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 Jul, 2010 09:29 am
@aidan,
Quote:
And that's what the goal is supposed to be- that they become educated. That they know more than they started out knowing.
And for some parents and children - the only important goal is an A on a piece of paper- what they know or don't know is secondary.

That's why I like the grading scale as it is over here.


You are completely missing my point Aidan, the grading scale has nothing to do with it. There is no system of grading that is going to make kids better educated... period.

The question is, what are grades for?

First... I assume you agree that grades are supposed to motivate. Whether you see them as a carrot or a cudgel, the primary goal of grades is to pressure kids to perform the way we want them to perform.

The problem is, there are all sorts of goals to teaching science, and each kid will benefit in a different way.

First, I really wanted to give the kids an affinity for, and a broad understanding of, the art of science. After all, most of my students were going to end up with jobs that had little to do with the specific science we were studying... I wanted them to have the experience of doing experiments, testing hypotheses, and thinking about problems in new ways.

Second, there curriculum standards set up by the state. It was my job to make sure that my students could perform certain, fill-in-the-blank tasks (such as calculating how far a projectile will fly).

Third, Physics at its core involves abstract thinking... you need to be able to imagine and understand hypothetical situations and compare them with real world phenomena. This is key to what physicists do, but very hard for many high school students whose brains simply don't want to work this way.

So how does a single letter grade possible fill all of these roles. I mean what do I do with the following types of students (all of these are real examples).

1. The very smart, but undisciplined, student who doesn't do very much homework... but really gets the ideas. She will get near perfect test scores and a very low homework grade. She also will stay after class to discuss very deep concepts that the finds interesting-- it is clear that she is thinking about things at night, while she is not doing her assigned homework. (Incidentally this person will probably make the best Physicist).

2. The very diligent student who works like crazy, putting in extra hours, but doesn't have the affinity or natural ability to really grasp the concepts-- but will do what it takes to get good test scores.

3. The robot who comes in with a DayTimer and asks me weekly what he needs to do to get an 'A' (and does exactly this much).

The real question is, what are grades for?

If grades are to measure mastery, then student #1 (in the example before) gets the 'A' (even though she doesn't do the assigned work). If grades are to pressure... um ... encourage kids to perform, then #2 gets the grades. If grades are supposed to be an achievement, the #3 should do well (as annoying as this behavior is).

Their are two problems with grades... since they are measuring too many things, one letter is not any meaningful measurement of an individual students progress. And, it is bad psychology, humans don't work this way-- if you give people such a one-dimensional reward, you are going to get a one-dimensional effort.

The problem isn't any specific system of grading... the entire idea of grades is problematic.
engineer
 
  3  
Reply Sat 24 Jul, 2010 01:47 pm
@ebrown p,
ebrown p wrote:

First... I assume you agree that grades are supposed to motivate. Whether you see them as a carrot or a cudgel, the primary goal of grades is to pressure kids to perform the way we want them to perform.

No, I don't agree that grades are supposed to motivate.

Grades are supposed to indicate, they are something that comes after the fact. Doing well for the sake of doing well might be a motivator in some cases and grades are the primary metric of doing well, but the purpose of grading is to indicate to the student, the teacher and the parents where the student is mastering the material and where more attention (be that more student effort, more teacher focus or more parental encouragement) is required. Motivation is not something you receive at the end of your work, it is something that need at the beginning. If you believe that grades are supposed to be motivator, I can see your fundamental disagreement with the system.
 

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