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Was Isaac or Ishmael to be Sacrificed ?

 
 
Reply Thu 20 Aug, 2009 02:16 pm
[SIZE="3"]Was Isaac or Ishmael to be Sacrificed?[/SIZE]

This article is a summery to many dialogs between Christians (C) and Muslims (M).

M: Why did Isma'il (Ishmael) and his mother Hajar (Hagar) leave Sarrah?

C: After Isaac was weaned, his mother Sarah saw Ishmael mocking him. After that, she didn't want Ishmael to be heir with her son Isaac: Genesis 21:8-10: "And the child grew, and was weaned, and Abraham made a great feast the same day that Isaac was weaned. And Sarah saw the son of Hagar the Egyptian, which she had born unto Abraham mocking. Wherefore she said unto Abraham: 'Cast out this bondwoman and her son, for the son of this bondwoman shall not be heir with my son, even with Isaac."'

M: Isaac was about two years old when he was weaned. Ishmael was then sixteen years is the profile of a baby, not of a teenager. So Ishmael and his mother Hagar left Sarah long before Isaac was born. According to the Islamic version, Abraham took Ishmael and Hagar and made a new settlement in Makkah, called Paran in the Bible (Genesis 21:21), because of a divine instruction given to Abraham as a part of God's plan. Hagar ran seven times between two hills, Safa and Marwa, looking for water. This is the origin of one of the rituals that is performed during the pilgrimage to Makkah. The well of water mentioned in Genesis 21:19 is still present and is known as called Zamzam. Both Abraham and Ishmael later built the Ka'bah in Makkah. The spot where Abraham used to perform prayers near the Ka'bah is still present and is known as the Maqam Ibrahim, i.e., the Station of Abraham. During the pilgrimage, pilgrims in Makkah and Muslims all over the world commemorate the offering of Abraham and Ishmael by slaughtering cattle.

C: But the Bible mentions that Isaac was to be sacrificed.

M: The Islamic version states that the covenant between God, Abraham, and his only son Ishmael was made and sealed when Ishmael was supposed to be sacrificed. On the very same day, Abraham, Ishmael, and all the men of Abraham's household were circumcised. At that time, Isaac had not even born: Genesis 17:24-27: "And Abraham was ninety years old and nine when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin. And Ishmael his son was thirteen years old, when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin. In the selfsame day was Abraham circumcised, and Ishmael his son. And all the men of his house, born in the house, and bought with money of the stranger, were circumcised with him."
A year later, Isaac was born and circumcised when he was eight days old: Genesis 21:4-5: "And Abraham circumcised his son Isaac being eight days old, as God had commanded him. And Abraham was a hundred years old, when his son Isaac was born unto him." So when the covenant was made and sealed (circumcision and sacrifice) Abraham was ninety-nine and Ishmael was thirteen. Isaac was born a year later, when Abraham was one hundred years old.
As you know, Kedar is a descendent of Ishmael (Genesis 25:13), and Ishmael is the the base for the Family Tree of Prophet Muhammad through Kedar. The followers of Ishmael, Prophet Muhammad and all Muslims, remain faithful until today to this covenant of circumcision. In their five daily prayers, Muslims include the praise of Abraham and his followers with the praise of Muhammad and his followers.

C: But in Genesis 22 it is mentioned that Isaac was to be sacrificed.

M: I know, but you will see the contradiction there. It is mentioned "shine only son Isaac." Shouldn't it be "shine only son Ishmael," when Ishmael was thirteen years old and Isaac had not even been born? When Isaac was born, Abraham had two sons. Because of chauvinism, the name of Ishmael was changed to Isaac in all of Genesis 22. But God has preserved the word "only" to show us what it should have been.
The words "I will multiply thy seed" in Genesis 22:17 was applied earlier to Ishmael in Genesis 16:10. Was not the whole of Genesis 22 applicable to Ishmael then? "I will make him a great nation" has been repeated twice for Ishmael in Genesis 17:20 and Genesis 16:10: "And the angel of the Lord said unto her [Hager]: 'I will multiply thy seed exceedingly, that it shall not be numbered for multitude."'
Genesis 17:20: "And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee. Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly. Twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation."
Genesis 21:13: "And also of the son of the bondwoman will I make a nation, because he is thy seed."
Genesis 21:18: "Arise, lift up the lad [Ishmael], and hold him in shine hand, for I will make him a great nation."
Deuteronomy 21:15-17: "If a man have two wives, one beloved and another hated, and they have born him children, both the beloved and the hated; and if the firstborn son be hers that was hated: Then it shall be, when he maketh his sons to inherit that which he hash, that he may not make the son of the beloved firstborn before the son of the hated, which is indeed the firstborn: But he shall acknowledge the son of the hated for the firstborn, by giving him a double portion of all that he hash: for he is the beginning of the strength; the right of the firstborn is his." Islam does not deny God's blessings on Isaac and his descendants, but the son of promise is Ishmael, from whom arose Muhammad as the seal of the prophets.

C: Can you prove that Jews changed the name of Ishmael to Isaac because of chauvinism?

M: The Encyclopaedia Judaica says:
It is related that a renowned traditionalist of Jewish origin, from the Qurayza tribe, and another Jewish scholar, who converted to Islam, told that Caliph Omar Ibn 'Abd al-Aziz (717-20) that the Jews were well informed that Ismail was the one who was bound, but that they concealed this out of jealousy. The Muslim legend also adds details of Hajar, the mother of Ismail. After Abraham drove her and her son out, she wandered between the hills of al-Safa and al-Marwa (in the vicinity of Mecca) in search for water. At that time the waters of the spring Zemzem began to flow. Her acts became the basis for the hallowed custom of Muslims during the Hajj.
Encyclopaedia Judaica, Volume 9, Encyclopaedia Judaica Jerusalem, pp. 82 (Under 'Ishmael').
The testimony of the former Jew as mentioned hadith literature as quoted in the Encyclopaedia Judaica reads:
Another proof of our speech [i.e., that sacrificed was Ishmael (P)] is reported by Ibn Ishaaq: "Muhammad Ibn Ka'b narrated that 'Umar Ibn 'Abd al-'Aziz sent for a man who had been a Jew then converted to Islam and showed signs of true Islam. [Before his conversion], he was one of their scholars [i.e., he was a Jewish scholar] So he [i.e., 'Umar] asked him: which son did Abraham (P) sacrifice? He replied: 'It is Ishmael(P). By God, O Commander of the Believers, the Jews know that but they envy you - the Arabs.'

C: But Ishmael was an illegitimate son.

M: That is what you say, but not what the Bible states. How could such a great prophet as Abraham have an illegal wife and a son out of wedlock!
Genesis 16:3: "... and [Sarah] gave her [Hager] to her husband Abram to be his wife." If the marriage was legal, how could their offspring be illegal? Is a marriage between two foreigners, a Chaldean and an Egyptian, not more legal than a marriage between a man with a daughter of his father? Whether it was a lie of Abraham or not, it is stated in Genesis 20:12: "And yet indeed she [Sarah] is my sister, she is the daughter of my father, but not the daughter of my mother; and she became my wife."
The name Ishmael was also chosen by Allah Himself: Genesis 16:11: "And the Angel of the Lord said unto her [Hager]: 'Behold, thou art with child, and shalt bear a son, and shalt call his name Ishmael, because the Lord hath heard thy affliction."' Ishmael means "God hears." Where in the Bible is it written that Ishmael was an illegitimate son?

C: Nowhere.

M: Long before both Ishmael and Isaac were born, Allah made a covenant with Abraham:
Genesis 15:18: "... saying Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the Euphrates." Doesn't the greater part of Arabia lie between the Nile and the Euphrates, where all the descendants of Ishmael settled at a later date?
Do you see also the difference that Abraham was called "a stranger" in Canaan but not in the land between the Nile and the Euphrates? As a Chaldean, he was more Arab than Jew.
That covenant was made with Abraham and Ishmael:
Genesis 17:10 This [is] my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.
Genesis 17:13 He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.



Reference: http://www.islam101.com/religions/christianity/sacrifice.htm
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YuhannaEl
 
  1  
Reply Fri 15 Jan, 2010 01:02 pm
@SWORD of GOD,
El Shaadi Appears To Abram ~A Yahuwa Appears To Abram In Genesis 17 ; 1 , And Tells Him That He Is El Shaadi - aramic - , The Mightiest Of The Eloheem - aramic - And This Is The First Time The Name El Shaadi - aramic - Appears In The Torah , He Appears Eght Other Places . The Next Is Genesis 28 ; 3 Where He Appears As El Shaadi - aramic - . This Time In The English Translation , The El Is Before The Shaadi Unlike The Previous Verse Where The Title El Falls After The Shaadi . This El Is Short For A Eloh - aramic - Of The Eloheem - aramic ; One Of The Yahwehans . The Next He Is Mentioned Speaking With Jacob About His Name Being Change To Israel In Genesis 35 ; 10 , Here God Is Eloheem - aramic - First , Then In Verse 11 , He Becomes El An Individual , And Its Worded Like This ; '' And The Eloheem Said Unto Him . I Am The El Shaadi ''

And Orders Them To '' Be Fruitful '' Also Telling Them That He Is The One That Gave The Land To Abraham And Isaac And Promise To Give That Land To Jacob's Seeds . This El Shaadi - aramic - Then In Verse 13 Is Classified As A Eloheem - aramic - Again , One Of The Plural . In That Same Verse 13 , It Says That This '' Eloheem - aramic - Awlaw - Ascended '' Upward , That Is Took A Craft And Went Above . And Up There As In The Mountain With Moses , He Talked With Jacob At A Specific Place , Confining This El Shaadi To A Specific Place On Earth , And Eliminating The Possiblity Of Him Being Omnipresent Or Everywhere At Once At All Times . Jacob Actually Set Up A Stone Pillar At The Exact Spot Where He Talked With God On Earth And Named This Place Bethel - aramic - Meaning '' House Of El , Not Of Eloheem , For He Acknowledged The Meeting Of El - aramic - Named Shaadi - aramic - .

Next Shaadi Appears In Genesis 43 ; 14 In A Prayer For Protection Saying . And The El - aramic - Shaadi Give You Mercy ... When Discussing How Joseph Had Been Sold To The Ishmaelites On Their Way To Egypt . Next In Genesis 48 ; 3 , Jacob Makes A Statement That '' El Shaadi - aramic - Rawaw ... Which Means He Made Himself Seen Physically . He Actually Appeared In A Specific Town Call ....Luz In The Land Of Canaan .. El Shaadi Was There Physically And Met And Blessed Jacob . Again In Genesis 49 ; 25 Jacob Is Using The Name El Shaadi To Bless His Sons . Then In Exodus 6 ; 2 - 3 , A Eloheem Speaks To Moses And Says To Him ... I Am Yahuwa . And I Rawaw - aramic Made Himself Seen Physically , Actually Appeared As A Mortal Unto Abraham , Isaac , And Jacob By My Name El - Shaadi But My Name Yahuwa .

I Was Not Known To Them '' . This Eloheem Tells Moses I Am Yahuwa , But By That Name Of Mine Abraham , Isaac , And Jacob Didn't Know Me , They Knew Me As El Shaadi -aramic - , Not Yahuwa - aramic - Then It's Used Again In Numbers 24 ; 4 , Concerning Baalam , A Worshipper Of The Deity Baal - aramic - With The Gift Of Prophecy In Number 24 ; 2 , And In Verse 3 Where It Says ; ... And He Meaning The Rooakh - aramic - Meaning The Soul ( Spirit ) Of Eloheem - aramic - [ Gods ] Took Up His Parable And Said Baalam The Son Of Beor Hath Said , And The Man Whose Eyes Are Open Hath Said ' , Now Verse 4 . States ; He Hath Said , Which Heard The Words Of El Which Saw The Machazeh - aramic - , And The Root Of This Word Vision Is Khawzaw - aramic - To See With The Physical Eye . So He Saw Shaai Falling . ( Note In Your Bible The Word Trance Is Italicized Meaning That It's Not There In The Aramic Hebrew )
.
They Add Into A Trance Because They Would Have To Admit That Shaadi Fell And Was Unconscious With His Eyes Open '' . This Would Limit The Power Of Shaadi To A Mere Mortal , So They Maliciously Added The Word Trance . Not Again This Has To Be A Physical Person Because He's Falling And Has His Eyes Opened . This Shaadi Have Eyes That Open And Close And Is Capable Of Falling . Next In Number 24 ; 16 It Is Speaking About Those Who .... Heard The Words Of El And Knew The Dahath - aramic - Knowledge Of Elyown - aramic - , The Most High , Which Saw The Vision Of Shaadi Falling With His Eyes Open '' .

This Is 9 Times That Shaadi Appears In The Torah . Note It Is Always Physical , Being Seen , Or Falling . This Shaadi That Appeared Was A Man In Physical Form Who Had The Ability To Utilize Some Sort Of Flying Vehicle To Go Up To The Place That Was Name After Him , Berhel - aramic - Now Read Verse 17 ... The Covenant Of Circumcision Is Established Now Read Verses 2 - 3 . Yahuwa Made Abram - aramic - The Ezalted One , The Father Of Many Goee - aramic 'Gentile Nations ' In Genesis 17 ; 4 , And Changed His Name To Abraham - aramic - Meaning 'Father Of Many Nations In Genesis 17 ; 5 . Abraham Fathered Three Nations , But Only Two Nations Are Mentioned Which Are 1 . The Ishmaelites , From Ishmael The Son Of Hagar ( Genesis 16 ; 15 ) , And 2 . The Israelites , From Israel , The Son Of Isaac . The Son Of Sarah According To Genesis 17 ; 19 . The Tird Nation Is The Midianites , Which Were Fathered By Midian According To Genesis 25 ; 2 , The Fourth Son Of Keturah . This Nation Of People , The Midianites Is Seldomly Mentioned . Now Read Verse 4 .

The Name Abraham Meaning ' Father Of Many Nation's , Came From The Ashuric Syriac ( Arabic ) Word Abra - arabic - And The Chalden Word Ibra , Which Means '' To Cross Over '' .
El Shaadi Made A Covenant With Abram In Genesis 17 ; 5 , Stating That He Would Be The Father Of Many Nations , And This Covenant Would Be For Him And His Generations To Come . This Covenant Required Every Male Of The House , Including The [ Ehbed - 'Slave ] To Be Circumcised On The Eight Day According To Genesis 17 ; 11 . Abram Received The Name Abraham After His Covenant Was Established In Genesis 17 ; 5 , Prior To That Incident , His Name Was Abram Meaning '' Exalted Father , Given To Him By His Parents , Terah And Nuwna In Genesis 11 ; 26 . Now Read Verses 5 - 27 ;....
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Aijanwq
 
  1  
Reply Sat 23 Jan, 2010 09:08 am
@SWORD of GOD,
1. Isaac was to be sacrificed. God promised Hagar that her son Ishmael, would beget twelve princes who would become a great nation. Ishmael then went to live in the wilderness region of Hejaz in what became known as the Arabian Peninsula. However, you'll notice that God always makes it clear what lineage, what God we should follow, you'll notice that God always mentioned and reminded people that "I am the Lord your God, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob." God never says I am the Lord your God, the God of Abraham, Ishamel and Jacob. You'll notice that God said He'll establish a covenant with Isaac. Interesting.

Note: Muslims believe the Jews changed and distorted the Bible in order to establish themselves as the heirs of Abraham's Covenant blessings. However, they fail to explain how the New Testament clearly teaches that the Covenant was made with Isaac and his descendants.

2. Galatians 4 tells us that Ishmael had been "born according to the flesh" while Isaac had been "born according to the promise". Isaac replaced Ishmael as the favored son and heir. This, of course, made Ishmael jealous and bitter. As a result, he mocked and disdained his half-brother. Eventually the situation became so intolerable that Abraham's wife Sarah demanded that Ishmael and his Egyptian concubine mother, Hagar, be expelled permanently from Abraham's family.

3. The conflict between Jews and Arabs started in Biblical times. The battle is between the 12 princes/rulers of Ishmael and 12 tribes of Israel. Arabs and the Israelis have been fighting since time immemorial over that tiny plot of land called Israel. Their battle is not one of flesh and blood, but of spiritual things. The Bible states that the last great battle will pit Israel against the rest of the Middle East and its allies.

Bible came before the Qu'ran.
YuhannaEl
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 Feb, 2010 08:53 am
@Aijanwq,
Aijanwq;69754 wrote:
1. Isaac was to be sacrificed. God promised Hagar that her son Ishmael, would beget twelve princes who would become a great nation. Ishmael then went to live in the wilderness region of Hejaz in what became known as the Arabian Peninsula. However, you'll notice that God always makes it clear what lineage, what God we should follow, you'll notice that God always mentioned and reminded people that "I am the Lord your God, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob." God never says I am the Lord your God, the God of Abraham, Ishamel and Jacob. You'll notice that God said He'll establish a covenant with Isaac. Interesting.

Note: Muslims believe the Jews changed and distorted the Bible in order to establish themselves as the heirs of Abraham's Covenant blessings. However, they fail to explain how the New Testament clearly teaches that the Covenant was made with Isaac and his descendants.

2. Galatians 4 tells us that Ishmael had been "born according to the flesh" while Isaac had been "born according to the promise". Isaac replaced Ishmael as the favored son and heir. This, of course, made Ishmael jealous and bitter. As a result, he mocked and disdained his half-brother. Eventually the situation became so intolerable that Abraham's wife Sarah demanded that Ishmael and his Egyptian concubine mother, Hagar, be expelled permanently from Abraham's family.

3. The conflict between Jews and Arabs started in Biblical times. The battle is between the 12 princes/rulers of Ishmael and 12 tribes of Israel. Arabs and the Israelis have been fighting since time immemorial over that tiny plot of land called Israel. Their battle is not one of flesh and blood, but of spiritual things. The Bible states that the last great battle will pit Israel against the rest of the Middle East and its allies.

Bible came before the Qu'ran.



Question ; Are Not 90% Of The Bible Written By The So-call Jews ?
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