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What Do Muslims Believe about Jesus?

 
 
Reply Mon 5 Mar, 2007 01:02 pm
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Type: Discussion • Score: 1 • Views: 2,173 • Replies: 27
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markx15
 
  1  
Reply Mon 5 Mar, 2007 02:44 pm
@The Submitter,
Tell me is Islam one united religion?
Morningstarr
 
  1  
Reply Mon 5 Mar, 2007 02:56 pm
@The Submitter,
I find it very unfair that "God" would give mankind such a badly written guidebook to lead their lives by. Either he does an update himself sometime soon or he's just a miserable old sod!

How many people are arguing about the right way and the wrong way? Surely "God" the merciful would help us out? If someone is born and just gets one version of events read to them, it's hardly fair that they should suffer in hell for eternity.
SWORD of GOD
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Mar, 2007 02:02 pm
@The Submitter,
THE QUESTIONS NO CHRISTIAN WANTS TO ANSWER -

What about the Bible? Who actually wrote it?

What was the original language of the Bible?(Hebrew? Aramaic? Koine Greek?)
NOTE:- The Bible was never in English during the time of any prophet (not even Muhammad)- because English did not exist until after 1066 AD!

Does the Bible exist in the original form anywhere on earth?(No)

Why does the Catholic Bible has seven (7) more books than the Protestant Bible?

Why do these two Bibles have different versions of the same books?

Why are there so many mistakes and errors are from the very first verse right up to the very last verse?

Why do 'Born Again Christians' teach concepts that are not from the Bible?

There is no word "Trinity" in the Bible in any version of any language

The oldest forms of Christianity do not support the 'born again' beliefs

Jesus of the English Bible complains about the 'crucifixion'("Eli! Eli! Lama sabachthani?- My God! My God! Why have You forsaken me?")[Mk 15:34]

How can Jesus be the "Only Begotten Son" of John 3:16? When in Psalms 2:7 David is God's "Begotten Son?"

Would a 'Just' God, a 'Fair' God, a 'Loving' God -- punish Jesus for the sins of the people that he called to follow him?

What happens to people who died before Jesus came?

What happens to those who never hear this message?

What about innocent children who die although their parents are not Christian?

Didn't God create Adam from dirt?-- So, why does he need Mary to make Jesus?

And what about God?
How can God create Himself?
How can God be a man?
How can a man be a God?
How can God have a son?
The Bible says "Seth (is) the son of Adam" and that"Adam is the son of God."[Lk 3:36]
Can't God just forgive us and not have to kill Jesus?
And what about Jesus?
Jesus did not even carry the cross -- Simon Cyre'ne, a passerby did![Mk 15:21]
Jesus of the Bible was NOT on the cross for longer than six (6) hours -- NOT three days --(from the 3rd to the 9th hour)[Mk 15:25 & 15:33]
Jesus of the Bible did not spend three days and nights in the tomb -- Friday night - until Sunday before dawn -- is not 3 days and nights!
Jesus DID NOT claim to be God - or even equal to God!
0 Replies
 
0Megabyte
 
  1  
Reply Sun 29 Apr, 2007 04:46 pm
@The Submitter,
Sword of God, plenty of Christians I know ask those questions. Then again, the Christians I talk to tend to be Jesuit priests.

Let's begin, shall we? I can't anwer some of them, but I can answer a lot of them.

1.) "Who actually wrote it? "

A lot of people. Most of whose names are lost, of course. But generally, many people, over many centuries, contributed. Many of the portions were originally orally transmitted, other parts were historical documents, sometimes potentially from court historians, and a lot of it was edited in Babylon. But there's no single person.

Doesn't take away the inspiration from God, however. But God certainly didn't dictate!

2.) "What was the original language of the Bible?(Hebrew? Aramaic? Koine Greek?)
NOTE:- The Bible was never in English during the time of any prophet (not even Muhammad)- because English did not exist until after 1066 AD! "

Multiple languages, and multiple forms of languages. Ancient Hebrew, Aramaic, sometimes Greek. What we have now are translations of translations of translations most of the time. We certainly don't have the original documents, though perhaps some in their original language.

3.) "Does the Bible exist in the original form anywhere on earth?(No)"

We dont' have an original copy of ANY of the books of the Bible. (Which were, of course, put together later.)

4.) "Why does the Catholic Bible has seven (7) more books than the Protestant Bible? "

This one takes a little history, which I may get wrong:

There were multiple forms of the Old Testament, that is, multiple different translations and compilations. The Septuagint, made in Alexandria, which included those extra seven books known as the Apocrypha, was eventually the form used by the Church after it formalized the books that were to be canon during the Council of Niceaea. (sp?) The Septuagint was the main source used in creating the Vulgate, the Latin translation used by the Church for a long time.

Anyway, however, the seven books were not considered canon by the Jews, and in fact, due to differing reasons, could be considered not inspired.

When the Protestant Reformation occured, the Apocrypha, as those seven books were called, were considered by the newly minted Protestants as not in the same league as the rest of the Bible, and were at first put into a separate section, before being omitted entirely.

5.) "Why do these two Bibles have different versions of the same books?"

I'm not sure about which books you refer to, but if I remember correctly, some books had things added which could be considered apocryphal, and those things were changed at the same time the Apocrypha were taken out of the Protestant Bible. (less certain of this one, honestly.)

6.) "Why are there so many mistakes and errors are from the very first verse right up to the very last verse?"

Depends entirely on which mistakes you mean. If you mean contradictions between and within books, that's easily explained by the fact that many of the books, such as Genesis, were compilations of many different stories, including variations on the same story, etc. Between books it's even easier, as, well, they were written at different times, by different people with different outlooks and differing sets of facts to work with.

If you mean more minute errors, it depends entirely on the errors, your statement is a little too vague for me to comment on effectively. But errors aren't a big surprise, due to the age of the texts, and the nature of their compilation.

7.) "Why do 'Born Again Christians' teach concepts that are not from the Bible?"

Not a Born Again Christian, and so am not comfortable talkign about beliefs I could be wrong about. However, every form of Christianity has things that are not directly IN the Bible. Such as...

8.) "There is no word "Trinity" in the Bible in any version of any language "

... the Trinity. There was a huge debate in early Christianity about what Jesus actually was, and his relation to God. A lot of groups would be considered heretical now, and there was a lot of conflict. The beliefs which seemed most popular, and became standard after much discussion, debate and soul-searching, was the Trinity, that God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit were all both separate individuals AND the same. This, of course, was decided upoin, among many other reasons, to deal with the problem of whether or not Jesus WAS God made Flesh, or just some Son of God, or what? It was not an easy time, but the final decision has stuck, and I, at least, accept it.

9.) "The oldest forms of Christianity do not support the 'born again' beliefs "

Again, unable to talk much about born again beliefs. Really, I haven't studied their beliefs well enough to be comfortable discussing them in relation to early Christians. Also, WHICH early Christians do you mean? There was a lot of variety in early beliefs.

10.) "Jesus of the English Bible complains about the 'crucifixion'("Eli! Eli! Lama sabachthani?- My God! My God! Why have You forsaken me?")[Mk 15:34] "

Actually, it's probable Jesus was quoting one of the psalms Mark's Gospel. I forget which one off the top of my head, and I don't have my Bible with me at the moment, so I can't be more specific.

11.) "How can Jesus be the "Only Begotten Son" of John 3:16? When in Psalms 2:7 David is God's "Begotten Son?" "

First, the psalms were poems, and they were not even in the same genre, or going for the same kind of meaning as the Gospels. Second, those psalms were not made by Christians, but by Jews, long before Christ's coming. Third, beliefs and understandings changed over time. Besides, it was freaking poetry from centuries earlier.

12.) "Would a 'Just' God, a 'Fair' God, a 'Loving' God -- punish Jesus for the sins of the people that he called to follow him? "

Depends. This is now philosophy and theology, not Bible studies, so its harder for me to say. A person's conclusion to this depends on their point of view, definition of just, fair, and loving, and also what they think of the philosophy that goes into the belief. Namely, that the Covenant God had made with Israel had essentially been broken, that God didn't want humanity to be punished anymore, so he created a new covenant, etc etc etc. A lot of different thoughts go into it. But a person's view depends on what they believe about it. It's not simple at all.

13.) "What happens to people who died before Jesus came? "

The Bible was never quite clear on that, or maybe it was and I missed the part where it mentioned that.

Presumably, if Christ did open the gates of Hell, the righteous dead would be allowed then to assume to heaven. But it depends entirely on your theological beliefs. I don't think it's made clear in the Bible, and thus the answer varies between people. No one alive was there to see it happen, after all.

14.) "What happens to those who never hear this message? "

Depends on what God wants to happen to those people, I suppose. I dunno. IT's not really made clear, so see above as to "the answer varies."

15.) "What about innocent children who die although their parents are not Christian? "

See above. The answer varies.

16.) "Didn't God create Adam from dirt?-- So, why does he need Mary to make Jesus? "

Well, because he felt like it, obviously. It served a different purpose.

17-21.) And what about God? ---> Yeah?
How can God create Himself? ---> Who knows?
How can God be a man? ---> If God's omnipotent, why can't he?
How can a man be a God? ---> see above.
How can God have a son? ---> see above, redux.

22.) "The Bible says "Seth (is) the son of Adam" and that"Adam is the son of God."[Lk 3:36] "

I don't have my Bible with me, but I'd have to look that up. It depends entirely on what Luke was meaning in that statement. And Son of God is a phrase that has more than one meaning, so you can't assume it all referrs to the same idea, necessarily.

23.) "Can't God just forgive us and not have to kill Jesus?"

Perhaps. What of it? If the New Testament is anything to go by, that's just the way He wanted to do it. Is there a problem with God having a sense for good drama?

24 and 25.) "Jesus did not even carry the cross -- Simon Cyre'ne, a passerby did![Mk 15:21]
Jesus of the Bible was NOT on the cross for longer than six (6) hours -- NOT three days --(from the 3rd to the 9th hour)[Mk 15:25 & 15:33] "

Okay, these are technical points I have to look up. I'll get back to you on those. Still, how do these technical points change anything? Why do they matter, precisely?

26.) J"esus of the Bible did not spend three days and nights in the tomb -- Friday night - until Sunday before dawn -- is not 3 days and nights! "

Well. Depends on your definition of day, as the Jewish definition was slightly different, and anyway, it doesn't matter too much anyway, it's just one of those cool dramatic thingies.

27.) "Jesus DID NOT claim to be God - or even equal to God!"

Depends on the Gospel you're reading. But it's probable that he himself didn't, in all history. Doesn't mean He wasn't, though.
Reagaknight
 
  1  
Reply Sun 29 Apr, 2007 06:37 pm
@The Submitter,
The Apocrypha is not equal with the rest of the Bible in the Catholic Church, i believe.

Actually, I remember something about Protestants removing part of the Bible that conflicted with some of their theology.

And also, the Council of Rome, not Nicaea, decided the list of books in the Bible.

Here's one for you, Does the Koran advocate violence in any way?
0 Replies
 
0Megabyte
 
  1  
Reply Sun 29 Apr, 2007 06:44 pm
@The Submitter,
Reagaknight, yeah, I knew I had a few inaccuracies, but, naturally, I didn't know where they were! Very Happy

Thanks. Council of Rome, not Nicaea. I keep getting those confused for some reason.

As for the Apocrypha, they're part of the Old Testament in the Catholic Church. I don't recall offhand if they have any statements to the effect that they're lesser. But I know that many probably do, as did the Protestants.

The books they got rid of were only those seven, the Apocrypha. You might be right that they did so due to conflicts with their theology. But I don't remember offhand all the details.

As for the Koran, I haven't read it! So I can't quite answer that question accurately.
0 Replies
 
Reagaknight
 
  1  
Reply Sun 29 Apr, 2007 06:52 pm
@The Submitter,
Look it up in the Catholic Encyclopedia (website). For some reason I can't copy and paste it. Anyway, it's deuterocanonical so.
0 Replies
 
Reagaknight
 
  1  
Reply Sun 29 Apr, 2007 06:52 pm
@The Submitter,
Look it up in the Catholic Encyclopedia (website). For some reason I can't copy and paste it. Anyway, it's deuterocanonical so.
0 Replies
 
SWORD of GOD
 
  1  
Reply Mon 30 Apr, 2007 10:13 am
@The Submitter,
Catholic Church no longer swears by truth of the Bible

Catholic Church no longer swears by truth of the Bible-News-World-Europe-TimesOnline
0 Replies
 
0Megabyte
 
  1  
Reply Mon 30 Apr, 2007 10:53 pm
@The Submitter,
Your statements aren't news to me.

I deal with Jesuit priests. If yuo read what I said, it would be obvious that their view, as well as mine, is that not every single section of the Bible is literal factual historical truth.

The actual article does not, in fact, state quite what you think it does. What are you trying to argue, anyway? I still dont' actually know.
0 Replies
 
0Megabyte
 
  1  
Reply Mon 30 Apr, 2007 10:55 pm
@The Submitter,
Luckily, it just shows that I'm not that much of a heretic after all.

I love how much I can't escape my religion, regardless of what I do.
0 Replies
 
I Understand
 
  1  
Reply Mon 30 Apr, 2007 11:06 pm
@The Submitter,
Yes they did rid of the Apocrypha because it conflicted with the theology of the time. Its a very interesting read because a lot of the views conflict with traditional beliefs.
0 Replies
 
0Megabyte
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 May, 2007 12:06 am
@The Submitter,
As a Catholic, the Apocrypha have never really disagreed with my beliefs.

So its just... par for the course for me. *shrugs*
0 Replies
 
Reagaknight
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 May, 2007 05:22 am
@The Submitter,
I'm saying it's not canonical but it's still of relevance.

Why don't you just convert?

So what, everyone knows there's a few hippy Church leaders who don't take the church seriously and want it to change, including Jesuits.
0 Replies
 
0Megabyte
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 May, 2007 12:21 pm
@The Submitter,
They aren't taking light of the faith at all.

I'd have to say that the Church is totally serious, and took a good step.

They are proclaiming here that you can't take every single word of the Bible as literal, factual, historical information. As they said, "Such an approach is dangerous, for example, when people of one nation or group see in the Bible a mandate for their own superiority, and even consider themselves permitted by the Bible to use violence against others.”

The Bible is true in passages relating to human salvation, they say, but continue: “We should not expect total accuracy from the Bible in other, secular matters.”

"In the document, the bishops acknowledge their debt to biblical scholars. They say the Bible must be approached in the knowledge that it is “God’s word expressed in human language” and that proper acknowledgement should be given both to the word of God and its human dimensions. "

Sounds pretty serious and heartfelt to me. Then again, they're just agreeing with conclusions I already came to years ago, so it's not precisely something radical to me.

You, Reagaknight, are the only one making light of things, not them.
0 Replies
 
Reagaknight
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 May, 2007 01:06 pm
@The Submitter,
What? I think you misunderstood me in a way that I have no way to point out.

If they don't believe that what they believe in the Bible happened, why are they Catholics. It's pretty stupid to become a Jesuit if you don't accept that the essentials are true. I really don't see any people using the Bible as a mandate for their superiority.
0 Replies
 
markx15
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 May, 2007 09:01 pm
@The Submitter,
If they know the passages that are wrong why don't they simply remove them?
0 Replies
 
chuckc cv
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 May, 2007 11:40 pm
@0Megabyte,
0Megabyte;14061 wrote:
Sword of God, plenty of Christians I know ask those questions. Then again, the Christians I talk to tend to be Jesuit priests.

Depends on the Gospel you're reading. But it's probable that he himself didn't, in all history. Doesn't mean He wasn't, though.


Thanks for the knowledge. I applaud your bravery and conviction regarding your faith. I am not a member of any specific religious philosophy.
0 Replies
 
sectionOne
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 May, 2007 06:56 am
@markx15,
markx15;11706 wrote:
Tell me is Islam one united religion?


moreso than others. but the problem with comparing Islam with Christianity is that comparing and contrasting doesn't yield much information. therefore, it's more valuable to look at it in a geopolitical sense.
since Islam is government and control and not a choice it effects people differently than a free spiritual choice. so comparing and contrasting how people behave in a religious environment would give you more information.

riots over cartoons of Mohammed. 8000 incidents of terrorism including daily beheadings of Christians all over the world. terrorism attacks in EU and US. killing all over Africa in the name of Islam. Thailand, Indonesia, Pakistan, Chechnya, India, all subjected to Sharia Law believers who use violence. This is a growing global issue that really isn't about the bible.
0 Replies
 
 

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