@jja00,
jja00 wrote:I wanted to start this forum to have discussion about religion (mostly Christianity because that is what I am familar with) Please excuse my rambling and ocassonal spelling errors. I also want to mention that I am not an athiest, I do belive in some kind of higher power but not religion. Don't ask me what kind of higher power because I will not pretent do know the answer to that and if you do I think you are not being honest with yourself. That said...
I first wanted to discuss that I think that religion is what is wrong with not only the world today but throughout our history. I feel that religion is just a tool of the rich and powerfull to control people. I'm not sure if the rich and powerfull acually belive in the fairy tales they preach or if they just realize how effective it can be. Think about it, how different do you think the world would be if poor people didn't have religion to give them hope and fear. I belive there was some type of higher power that helped to creat the world but after that I don't think he has much influence on what happens in the world. If that is the case that he decides everything that happens I think it is a sick joke the some people are born into a poor home where they have very little chance to survive or advance in life and the next person is born into a rich family and given a signifantly better chance to suceed and have a happy life. I am not saying this because I had a bad childhood or anything like that. I am very happy with my life but I don't think the world if fair and I would like to think that god has anything to do with that. I think religion was used and is still used today to justify the action of the people in power and to keep lower classes of people from revolting. For example the bible uses imagry such as streets paved in gold and burning in hell. The bible uses these to create hope and fear. That often why you find poor people or people with a lot of personal or emotion problems to be the most religous. Do you really think that gold streets would really matter in heaven if it existed? Gold is a metal was made valuable by people, I doubt it would have any value in heaven. The bible also uses fear tactics such as burning for eternity because it plays on peoples senses, everyone know that fire hurts and burning forever sounds really bad. Maybe religion is still a necessary tool because we still live in a world full of mostly poor uneducated followers. I guess it can be viewed as a somewhat good thing because what would stop a majority of poor people from revolting and taking the wealth and power from the people in control of it now. If you were born in to poverty and you weren't brainwashed into having hope to get into heaven or fear of having to go to hell you would probably not tolorate the current life you are living. The bible does a good job though by making sure to cover most types of people, those that are motivated by reward (heaven), and those that are motivated by punishment (hell). Parents use the same tools to control their children, (If your good you'll get some candy, If you do this you'll get grounded or spanked) Same basic concepts just different rewards and punishments.
My hope is that someday we can just get away from religion but I doubt that will ever be the case. We may someday change to a new religions in our societies but I doubt we will ever get rid of them. I just wish people would at least follow a religion that makes sense or at lease is a little bit modern. We might as well be worshiping the Aztec sun gods, or Zues, or any other ancient religion. The main thing that turned me away from religion was reading the bible. I think its funny that a majority of christians that base their entire beliefs on the bible haven't even read the entire thing. They rely on the intepetation of certain verses by leaders of thier churches. Most of the stories in the bible are rediculous and i've read children fantacy books that were more believable. Take for example the main focus in Chritianty, the death of Jesus. That story doesn't even make sense. So let me get this strait, God sent his one only son to earth to have him killed to forgive our sins. Seems like thier could have been an easier way, hey I got an idea, how about skip the violence and send his son to live forever so everyone can see him not just the people thousands of years ago. How did him dying help save us. The world is still corrupt and full of "sin". Oh yeah the whole asking for forgiveness thing, thanks for the excuse to do whatever I want as long as I say I am truly sorry and say I believe in Jesus. Good to know if I ever want to kill someone that there is still a chance I will walk on those nice gold paved streets and not be burned forever (sorry for the sarcasim but come on) I think that the stories are mostly rediculous and we might was well follow a religion based on the stories from the Lord of the Rings.
I know I'm waisting my time discussing religion with most Christian people because they are so conditioned that I think with confronted with any type of oppostion it scares them because it could possible make them think they are wrong. Religion is just a group of people trying to make themself feel more right. If you belive in a certain type of religion I hope you are right but with all the differing religions of the world and differnt variations of them I hope you are right. I think you would have a better chance of winning the lottery. It's almost like putting all your stock in one company like Microsoft, Nike, or Enron. Hopefully you didn't pick Enron because all those people believed in that company.
Please feel free to join in this discussion but please understand that I am not trying to change your views if you believe in a religion such as Christianity. I do not claim to be right because I will honestly say I don't know. If god wanted a religion such as Christianity to be the true word of god he would have made it clear concise an everyone would be able to understand it without having someone else interpit for them and there would be no room for discussion. If you claim that you know I don't think you are being honest with yourself. If the bible was the true word of god why would it only be based on the past. Why couldn't he send another son so people today could better relate. If that were to happen today I'm sure not many people would believe he was the son of god although he would probably get some followers to believe him and then he would probably make the people in power mad and they would probably try to kill him. Does the Branch Davidians from Waco, TX sound familar? I don't know the details but the story sounds familar. If I got some of his followers and wrote a book that explains miracles he did and make it sound credible by listing witnesses and say we were inspired by god, would you follow it? No, what if I threw in some streets paved in gold, platinum, diamonds, and I'll even throw in 45 virgins because that sounds pretty good. Still not good enough well how about if you don't you'll burn, get your eyes gouged out, be sodimized, and have to listen to Ricky Martin's Livin Lavit Loca over and over, but not the whold song, just that phrase beause the cd is scrached. Sounds like you better follow follow our book:D
Well I suppose I'll stop rambling now, please no standard Jesus is our savior, or the son of god responses. They get old and make all Christians sound brainwashed and ignorant. And please don't try to convert me or pray for me. I have been to church my whole life and I still go from time to time with my wife. Yes belive it or not my wife goes to church. I respect her views on religion even though I don't agree with them and we are still happily married. I am lucky enough to be married to someone inteligent enough to understand everyone is different and that everyone's ideas should be respected.
A respone to your query from a Christian standpoint:
1. I'm a Christian, and I am neither poor nor uneducated. Religious practices themselves (such as required confessions and scripted prayers) are what is wrong with what most people call religion in today's world. It takes a true belief in what the Bible says, as well as an acceptance of it, to truly understand the difference between faith and religion. My faith is much more to me than just my way into a nice afterlife, and I think any true, God-respecting Christian will tell you the same. God helps me through my daily trials, and He is the source of my hope and joy. Many corrupt individuals have been associated with the church throughout time, but the same could be said for any organization and government that is worth being mentioned.
2. I feel that the Bible uses the streets of gold and gates of pearl imagery to explain to us that those things precious to us in this life will have no bearing on us in the afterlife. Hell is simply a lake of fire and brimstone to punish those who didn't accept God's gift and repentence for their sins through Jesus, and it's probably close in torment to your Ricky Martin example.
3. What religion would you like people to follow that makes sense in today's modern times? Scientology deals with definite corruption, so it's out. The Eastern religions are definitely not modern and have a lot more to do with gods and the normal religions than you would probably be comfortable with. Islam, Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism, Mormonism, and Jehovah's Witnesses are far from modern, so there goes all of America's religions.
4. When it comes to the issue of people not reading the Bible and counting on church leaders to interpret scriptures, you have a good point. However, most true Christians you will talk to don't rely on their church leaders to show them anything they couldn't get from the Bible on their own. I've not read the whole thing, but I have read a lot, and only a small amount of Christians have read every single word (try reading Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy, and then tell me your opinion of them). The only thing wrong with me not reading all of it is that I've missed out on what all God could teach me through it. Do you often sit down and read 2,000 page textbooks (take out the pictures and huge charts)?
5. You touched on the most important aspect of Christianity in Jesus, but I feel that you've gotten it misunderstood. God sent Jesus (God's Son, but just as holy as God) to make the Word become flesh, so that the world could see God. God Himself is unable to be seen by any human, and Moses was nearly blinded by just his presence. I don't think God has sent "another son" to the world so that people would have to put their faith in what Jesus did while He was here. Giving us "another Jesus" would devalue the whole basis of Christianity. When it comes to forgiveness though, it's not just a "get out of jail free" card. We have to make a committed turn from that sin and towards God before we are ever forgiven for it, and I believe that even the murderers who repent of their sins will have to face some sort of lack of blessings or something of the like. Do you think the stories are as ridiculous as the one of my pastor who was going into surgery to have colon cancer removed? The church prayed all night long for him, and when the doctors cut him open, there was no trace of cancer anywhere in his body. The miracles performed in the Bible are no more "ridiculous" when you truly believe in what God can do with enough faith.
6. Just because not everyone can interpret every word the Bible says doesn't mean it's any less powerful. Ask any church leader you know, and they'll tell you that THEY don't even understand all of what God meant in the Bible, but they learn through studying it and trusting that God will reveal to them what certain verses are for and what they mean.
7. I also believe that everyone's ideas should be respected, so I don't want you to get the picture that all Christians are brainwashed and ignorant, because they aren't. Not all believe that "God hates fags" and that anyone who has an abortion is a murderer condemned to Hell for all of eternity. I'm sorry that you've met the bad ones, but it sounds like your perspective on Christianity is doomed from the start. I do, however, believe that the message of Jesus in the Bible is true, and that while I respect others' beliefs, I don't have to accept them as true or valid. Tolerance and acceptance are not identical.
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