is the education system making people stupid?

Forums: Education, Philosophy, Sweeping Generalizations
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I was thinking about the nature of learning and understanding last night, and how school screws it all up...

There is an element of interpretation involved in learning any new concept or subject. someones interpretation of something depends on how much attention they give it, so there is a responsibility involved in interpretation.

Teaching and education ignore this interpretive element somewhat. “understanding” in education, is not based on interpretation, rather its based on having the ability to repeat chucks of information to the standards that the criteria demands. People are implicitly taught that “understanding” is possible only if you get a passing grade on an exam, and that therefore you fail to understand, if you get a failing grade.

This is often interpreted by students who do fail not as being due to a lack of effort on their part, but the grade will be perceived to be showing them to be completely incapable, and they will believe that they are intrinsically unable to do the work.

Of course there are some students who to genuinely struggle to grasp the things that they are being taught, however, the way education is set up in that success and ability is dependent upon getting a passing grade, this means that perfectly capable people are being taught implicitly to believe that they are incapable.

This is due to the way we present education and learning and in particular how we portray successful learning to our students, as being dependent on passing or failing.

This makes capable people think they are incapable, and that is the real issue.

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@existential potential,

Quote:

is the education system making people stupid?

The public school system in America has always done that, that's its basic objective. It was modeled after the Prussian system intended to produce compliant factory workers and soldiers for the Prussian army.

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@gungasnake,

gungasnake wrote:

It was modeled after the Prussian system intended to produce compliant factory workers and soldiers for the Prussian army.

At least the part about the "Prussian system" is not only untrue but completely non-sense.

Prussia, indeed, was one of the countries in the world to introduce free and generally compulsory primary education, consisting of an eight-year course of basic education, in 1717.

But elsewhere, in nearly all other German countries, there had been a good educational system as well. (Around 1650, we had in my native town one compulsory primary school - run by the town - and two 'high schools'; about 2,000 inhabitants at that time and not situated in Prussia.)

There are several books -in English- about the education in late medieval times (1250 - 1500) in Germany. You only have to read the blurbs, gunga, ....

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@Walter Hinteler,

thats fine, but I want to focus on the nature of learning and understanding, and how these things are treated in the education system.

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@existential potential,

And this response ...

gungasnake wrote:

The public school system in America has always done that, that's its basic objective. It was modeled after the Prussian system intended to produce compliant factory workers and soldiers for the Prussian army.

... qualifies for that?

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@existential potential,

Parents shouldn't be relying too much on the schools to educate their kids, they should be doing a lot of the education themselves by working on their kids schoolwork with them. I think schools are pretty good at providing the basic tools for knowledge, but I think the motivation and desire to learn come from seeing their parents do it as well.

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@existential potential,

Well in the US they tend to be weak in teaching student to think and there had always been a strong drive to indoctrinate students such as Texas demanding history text books white wash some aspects of American history and the constant attacks on evolution by the religion nuts.

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@Walter Hinteler,

http://www.wesjones.com/gatto1.htm

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I mean, Friedrich II once actually told Voltaire that if any of his (Friedrich's) soldiers were to actually think about what they were doing for as long as ten seconds, they'd all be gone. That's the main basic reason for all the German sounding family names in Pennsylvania.

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@rosborne979,

I think its what the schools teach unintentionally that have the most significance and influence over the students.

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@existential potential,

existential potential wrote:

I think its what the schools teach unintentionally that have the most significance and influence over the students.

Like what? Can you give an example?

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@rosborne979,

education presents the process of learning and understanding in distorted ways. a student "understands" or has successfully "learnt" something if they achieve a passing grade. if a student fails, then that can be interpreted by the student to mean that they are intrinscally incapable of learning or understanding, but this is not always the case. from my experience, schools do not attempt to help students in understanding why they may have failed, they simply present them with grades which mean: success/understanding or fail/lack of understanding.

a student who fails may be capable but did not make the effort, but the grade they achieve is understood to unequivocally demonstrate ability and competence, which means that a capable student will come to believe they are incapable, when they are not.

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@existential potential,

I believe this effect can be easily overridden by involved parents.

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@rosborne979,

how exactly?

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@existential potential,

existential potential wrote:

how exactly?

Whereas schools do not attempt to teach kids why they have failed (as you said), parents can teach them this. Grades are just a measurement system, many who have failed in the past have gone on to successes. A parent who reinforces their child's positive self image shouldn't have much trouble addressing that particular weakness in the schools.

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@existential potential,

E.P. - Many of us in the school system also think students are missing the element of interpretation, as you call it. We'd more likely call it analysis, application or synthesis, but I think it's the same idea. Kids are told information that they are expected to memorize. There's little in the way of higher-thinking expected. Kids are often able to give a definition of a word, but are hard pressed to restate that definition in their own words, for example, or apply it.

Teaching these skills uses up a lot of time. Teachers have a specific set of skills and info that they need to impart on their students every year (as designated by state and district administrators). They need to teach it at a break neck speed which bogs all but the most capable learners down. Something needs to give.

Having said that, it is NOT just the schools that are lacking. Parents also seem to be pressed for time. It is easier for them to tie a kid's shoes than to sit and let the kid work it out. It's easier to edit the essay than to sit with their child and talk about editing rules and see what their child does with them. And, it is hard to let a child turn in a poorly done project to suffer natural consequences, when the parent can step in and polish the project up.

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As far as teaching kids why they failed, some teachers do. Often teachers force (or firmly push) kids too make test corrections. In my own world, special ed kids are often told to revisit questions that they got wrong to see why they got them wrong. Most tests are reviewed in class so that any interested student can see where he or she went wrong on any given question.

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Few days back, I google searched to see exactly why employers demand degree certificates from job applicants. One convincing argument that I found was that presence of degree/certificate gives enough surety that the applicant is determined … he has spend 24/25 years of his life in order to become a good employee. He is submissive and he shall obey the commands of employer. Employers don’t like that employees be able to “plan” the things by themselves. Employers tend to keep planning aspects in their own hands. They prefer and like their own plannings. They don’t really need employees competent enough to plan the things. They only need obedient people who have good track record of completing “assignments” in time.

Education system may be all good in terms of recognition in employment sector. But role of education system is not to spread knowledge. It’s role is to produce obedient people to meet the ongoing demands of employers.

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@khuramonline,

khuramonline wrote:

Few days back, I google searched to see exactly why employers demand degree certificates from job applicants. One convincing argument that I found was that presence of degree/certificate gives enough surety that the applicant is determined … he has spend 24/25 years of his life in order to become a good employee. He is submissive and he shall obey the commands of employer. Employers don’t like that employees be able to “plan” the things by themselves. Employers tend to keep planning aspects in their own hands. They prefer and like their own plannings. They don’t really need employees competent enough to plan the things. They only need obedient people who have good track record of completing “assignments” in time.

Speaking as an employer, I can say this isn't true. I seek employees who can think on their own and who have certain knowledge and skills.

khuramonline wrote:

Education system may be all good in terms of recognition in employment sector. But role of education system is not to spread knowledge. It’s role is to produce obedient people to meet the ongoing demands of employers.

The education system *should* be to spread knowledge. If it's not doing that then it's failing the kids and future employers. Most employers don't want crazy off-the-wall employees who can't follow the basic tenets of the job, but we also don't want robots who can't think. We want well balanced happy skilled people to work with.

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@rosborne979,

one of the problems with the current education system lies in its assumptions about what it means to "learn" something, and in the way the education system conveys what it means to "understanding" something. "understanding" is always implictily defined in terms of passing/failing grades.

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is the education system making people stupid?

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