Buddhism and abortion?

@jeeprs,

jeeprs;153523 wrote:

duh! What does 'natural' mean? I said before, if it means, 'everything that humans do' then what is the distinction between what is natural and what is not? Heavens sake. Not rocket science.

'No sentient beings to be saved' is a misinterpretation at face value. In Mahayana, there is a 'relative' truth and 'supreme' truth. You can say 'ultimately there are no separate beings, no self, no ego'. This is the supreme, ultimate truth. But the apparent individuals in their apparent life see themselves as self, ego, as I do, and I am sure you do. this is relative truth, the realm in which egoic beings dwell. Therefore the dedication of the Mahayana practitioner is to awaken all beings to the realization of 'no self, no separate being'.

Yes and to give rise to the notion that there are others to be saved would ultimately denote failure to realize there is no self, or separate entity. As soon as you say that you strive for enlightenment for the sake of all beings you will ultimately fail.

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@jeeprs,

jeeprs[COLOR=Silver wrote:

---------- Post added 04-18-2010 at 09:03 PM ----------

[/COLOR]

They may be good sentiments, though carelessly typed. But a great part of philosophical analysis is the ability to make distinctions. So to say 'everything is the same thing' may be a poetic expression, but it is not actually a true statement.

Yes it is but we are talking about Buddhist philosophy and they believe that all things are nature so its no good going off of the western difinitions of 'nature'. They have made that distinction.

---------- Post added 04-19-2010 at 05:25 PM ----------

Krumple;153525 wrote:

Yes and to give rise to the notion that there are others to be saved would ultimately denote failure to realize there is no self, or separate entity. As soon as you say that you strive for enlightenment for the sake of all beings you will ultimately fail.

Ahh but there is a sence of ones being. And infact once enlightenment has been reach some stay behind to help other 'beings' reach enlightenment.
So there is seperation in that sence.

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@Ali phil,

Ali;153835 wrote:

Ahh but there is a sence of ones being. And infact once enlightenment has been reach some stay behind to help other 'beings' reach enlightenment.
So there is seperation in that sence.

I am skeptical of this. I haven't found a single person who would be such a being. The part that annoys me is that I hear, well if the student is ripe the master will appear. I have a major problem with this because those who need help and are in the mindset still can't find the master. I have also been told that you have to help yourself, but that is just plain silly. If I have to self rescue myself then what is the point in the Buddha even saying anything at all? It seems ridiculous that I would have to self rescue and that is considered a valid teaching.

That would be like wanting to learn math, but since you can't find a math teacher you just self teach yourself. The problem is, you never know when you are making a mistake. So it would be much easier to find the proper teacher to learn from. Yet I still have not found anyone who is a teacher.

The only thing I have found and a lot of is a bunch of Buddhist mystics. They talk the nice talk but their plans of practice are vague and you never really know if you are making any progress. So it's like this huge left open for interpretation path without any guidance. It's like going on a mountain climbing expedition and not having any guide at all expecting to know where all the dangers and pitfalls are alone. You can't do it.

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@Deckard,

The Zen schools and Vipassana schools that I learned from recommend a commitment to a daily and fairly rigorous schedule of meditation practice, in the context of a well-established philosophical and psychological discipline. Nothing vague about it, but you have to walk the walk. Lounge chair skepticism is a very convenient position to have, of course. Requires no commitment.

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@jeeprs,

jeeprs;153876 wrote:

The Zen schools and Vipassana schools that I learned from recommend a commitment to a daily and fairly rigorous schedule of meditation practice, in the context of a well-established philosophical and psychological discipline. Nothing vague about it, but you have to walk the walk. Lounge chair skepticism is a very convenient position to have, of course. Requires no commitment.

How long is this rigorous schedule of meditation practice? Does fifteen years count? Or is that not long enough? Have you held a rigorous schedule of meditation practice? If you haven't why not, I mean if you believe it is truly a path pursuing why are you not undertaking it?

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@Deckard,

Ah but you have obviously not practised buddhism if you had you would know its very clear. If you ask practacle any Zen buddhists where they are on their path to enlightenment they will aswer, according to the stage they are at with the Ox herding picture representing The different stages of satori up to enlightenment.

As for why should buddha say anything atall.

1 Many teaching have been silent.
2 The point of meditaion is that you descover first hand absolout truth, and you can teach this with words, it must be descovered by your self. Others can give you the gidelines to help you on the path, but can do it for you.

---------- Post added 04-19-2010 at 09:28 PM ----------

'ow long is this rigorous schedule of meditation practice? Does fifteen years count? Or is that not long enough? Have you held a rigorous schedule of meditation practice? If you haven't why not, I mean if you believe it is truly a path pursuing why are you not undertaking it?'

It is not matter of time, it is a matter of clearness of mind and also your karma accumalated from previous lives among other things. For some achieving enlightenment will be impossible for others they have reached it simply by hearing buddha speak (:

1 Reply

@Ali phil,

Krumple;153873 wrote:

]The only thing I have found and a lot of is a bunch of Buddhist mystics. They talk the nice talk but their plans of practice are vague and you never really know if you are making any progress.

Well, where have you found this? There is a clear plan of action in Buddhist meditation schools, generally. It is not that vague, and you can gauge whether there is any progress being made.

Krumple;153881 wrote:

How long is this rigorous schedule of meditation practice? Does fifteen years count? Or is that not long enough? Have you held a rigorous schedule of meditation practice? If you haven't why not, I mean if you believe it is truly a path pursuing why are you not undertaking it?

15 years compared to what? Are you saying, you have been practicing for 15 years, and haven't realized any benefit?

Speaking for myself, I do have a regular practice. It is very easy to fall off the schedule, and it takes commitment to pursue it. But it does produce benefits that are quite tangible, subjectively. The principles are not really that mysterious. In fact Buddhist meditation is not necessarily mystical at all, although there are mystical Buddhist schools.

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@jeeprs,

jeeprs;153902 wrote:

Well, where have you found this? There is a clear plan of action in Buddhist meditation schools, generally. It is not that vague, and you can gauge whether there is any progress being made.

I have frequented many different schools. Where I live I am surrounded by Buddhist temples. I went to the local ones and even went to out of state ones. I practice many different practices. I know more than I let on. I have gone on many retreats. A few years ago, I decided to abandon it all because I realized I had not achieved or changed anything the entire time. I was no better off than I was before I had started. I realized I had been fed nothing but a selling pitch all that time. "Just keep with your practice and it will bear fruit."

I am saying if it takes a whole life time, then it is not worth it. I could die tomorrow and have not learned a single thing that would help me. So if it requires five years, ten years, fifteen years or a hundred to awaken what good is it if it takes so much time?

I simply do not buy the karma argument. Because it is said in the sutras, one pure thought can extinguish a thousand lives of bad karma. Or how about learning ten lines of the shurangama sutra by heart? It even states that to do so would extinguish a hundred thousand life times of bad karma. Some Buddhist don't even accept that sutra to be authentic. However I should probably mention that I memorized the entire sutra. Not many have actually done that. It took me over two years of studying just it to actually accomplish it. I can still recite it and sometimes I do it to kill time when I am waiting for something since it takes over fifteen minutes to complete it.

But as I have said, I have given it up. I find it nothing different than ordinary sales pitch of wishful thinking. Buy our miracle cure, just keep donating to our cause and keep your practice and it will eventually bare fruit. If it takes a long time, it is not practical. If it is not practical then what good is it? When you learn an instrument, it is true, it might take years of hard work, but eventually you get to the point when you can compose your own music. I have never found a person within Buddhism who can compose their own music. Show me someone who has and I will redact my statement.

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@Deckard,

My Mother is a buddhist she has played the violen for 50 years and can compose her own music.

I feel very sad that you dedicated 15 years and found no awakaning, sence i was concieved i have been going to buddhist retreats but only recently have i found personal intrest in buddhism, i never used to find rewards but now after sixteen years, i can accualy say i know what im looking for and because of that i know what i've found so far.

P.S sorry how do i start a thread? (:

1 Reply

@Ali phil,

Ali;153919 wrote:

My Mother is a buddhist she has played the violen for 50 years and can compose her own music.

I wasn't actually referring to music. I was actually saying if there are those who have been practicing buddhism for enough time, they should be able to compose some dharma. Where are the dharma composers?

Ali;153919 wrote:

I feel very sad that you dedicated 15 years and found no awakaning, sence i was concieved i have been going to buddhist retreats but only recently have i found personal intrest in buddhism, i never used to find rewards but now after sixteen years, i can accualy say i know what im looking for and because of that i know what i've found so far.

I was not raised as a Buddhist and no one else in my family was interested in any religions. Most of my friends did not care about Buddhism. My curiosity was only perked when I met a girlfriend who had a minor interest in it. Other than that I had to do everything myself. I visited temples by myself and tried to meet people there but I couldn't really relate with anyone enough to befriend them. I wanted to find a school of Buddhism that I could fit into, but I couldn't find one. I met many different types of teachers. Ones that were flamboyant with their gifts, they drove BMWs and wore gold watches and others that bounced around from temple to temple. One teacher that I liked, was constantly being kicked from temple to temple since I guess he never generated enough money for them to want him to teach. He was like a wandering dog teacher that no one wanted around except for a handful of students that liked his teachings.

Ali;153919 wrote:

P.S sorry how do i start a thread? (:

You have to navigate into the section you want the thread to be in. There should be a NEW THREAD button near the top of the section. Just click that, and add in the thread title and post away.

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@Deckard,

That's a pity. I thought you meant music. I write music, here is a sample. As for Dharma, I started out with a past life memory. I investigated various religious philosophies, and I think the Buddhist way is best. I teach dharma, on a strictly amateur basis, and the only retreats I have done are free. I too don't like the commercialization of spiritual teachings. As Suzuki-zenji said, practice without any gaining idea, and sit just to sit. I recall a quote from one of the scriptures which said 'I have realized the supreme truth, and I have gained nothing thereby'. Life goes on, and I will stay with it. Perhaps it will mean something to you some day.

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@Deckard,

Hmmm i still find it very od that you never felt anything /:
Thanks for answering my question on posting new threads (:
i liked your music, was interesting felt like it should be slower but then all made scene haah (: (jeepers)

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@jeeprs,

jeeprs;153926 wrote:

That's a pity. I thought you meant music. I write music, here is a sample. As for Dharma, I started out with a past life memory.

Care to elaborate on the memory a little more? The song is good, a bit to casual for me but it is still good.

jeeprs;153926 wrote:

I investigated various religious philosophies, and I think the Buddhist way is best. I teach dharma, on a strictly amateur basis, and the only retreats I have done are free.

They will give anyone the dharma throne now-a-days?

jeeprs;153926 wrote:

I too don't like the commercialization of spiritual teachings. As Suzuki-zenji said, practice without any gaining idea, and sit just to sit. I recall a quote from one of the scriptures which said 'I have realized the supreme truth, and I have gained nothing thereby'. Life goes on, and I will stay with it. Perhaps it will mean something to you some day.

I was kicked out of a local chan school. It might be hard to believe but it did happen. There was around thirty of us and we were sitting in a session and I just so happened to have the corner seat. About fifteen minutes into the sit roughly a thought got me kicked out. I couldn't quit laughing, because I was taken back to when I was young. When I got in trouble, I was forced to sit in the corner as a punishment, but it never worked because I just used my imagination to go elsewhere, so I could sit there for hours and it would not be punishment. This thought made me laugh as if I was punishing myself with zazen. The teacher came over and requested that I leave and not return. At first I thought she was joking until I saw the look on her face.

I always had the feeling the teacher didn't really like me all that much but I couldn't figure out why, at least not until after I ran into another member a few weeks later. He said after I had left several other students had also left because of the my incident and he followed after that. I asked him about why everyone was leaving. He said the teacher only catered to those who donated a lot of money. If you didn't donate she didn't care about you as a student. Since I rarely donated she didn't have much tolerance for me and that is why she asked me to not come back.

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@Deckard,

This teacher is corupt in every sence of the word, a corupt action, is action which is immoral. (amung other things)
Very sad that she would do this, because everyone knows what its like not being able to stop laughing.
Would be fairly irretating but pretty slack how she failed to show any understanding or patients.

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@Krumple,

Krumple;154330 wrote:

Care to elaborate on the memory a little more? The song is good, a bit to casual for me but it is still good.

They will give anyone the dharma throne now-a-days?

I was kicked out of a local chan school. It might be hard to believe but it did happen. There was around thirty of us and we were sitting in a session and I just so happened to have the corner seat. About fifteen minutes into the sit roughly a thought got me kicked out. I couldn't quit laughing, because I was taken back to when I was young. When I got in trouble, I was forced to sit in the corner as a punishment, but it never worked because I just used my imagination to go elsewhere, so I could sit there for hours and it would not be punishment. This thought made me laugh as if I was punishing myself with zazen. The teacher came over and requested that I leave and not return. At first I thought she was joking until I saw the look on her face.

I always had the feeling the teacher didn't really like me all that much but I couldn't figure out why, at least not until after I ran into another member a few weeks later. He said after I had left several other students had also left because of the my incident and he followed after that. I asked him about why everyone was leaving. He said the teacher only catered to those who donated a lot of money. If you didn't donate she didn't care about you as a student. Since I rarely donated she didn't have much tolerance for me and that is why she asked me to not come back.

That's a real shame. Nothing like that ever happened in my experience. Incidentally that experience of laughter, I would have thought, was actually a real catharsis. If I had been teaching I would have recognized that. Not that I am an official teacher. I give talks on the subject on the Buddhist Library and a few other places, as an interested student and someone sharing his experience.

So that issue of money and so on, really is completely tangential to the main purpose and intent. The retreats I have been on have all been free. I went to some at Wat Buddha Dhamma, which is a forest retreat centre in very remote bushland, many years ago, and more recently the Goenka Vipassana 10-retreat, which was very hard to get through.

But I have to say, I am very suspicious of many Western dharma teachers (and also Satsang teachers) and have never really found a centre or group that I could relate to. I have now joined a Dhamma Sharing group which are mainly from the student body of one of the Universities. It is a mainlysecular approach, based on understanding the principles and a personal commitment to meditation.

As for my past-life memory, when I was about 11 or 12, I had some sudden realisations of a higher identity or higher awareness. It is very hard to communicate, maybe because it is very simple and seems very obvious when it happens. One of them was that there is always someone to whom everything happens, in whom everything arises. There is always an 'I am' present in every experience.

Anyway that is a very poor show on the part of the Chan school it would seem to me. Mara assumes many forms in the attempt to dissuade beings from pursuing the Noble Path. Or maybe it is not the school for you. But I would not give up so easily - the chance to encounter the teaching does not come often.

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@Krumple,

Fascinating thread, and thank you for bringing this stuff to light. Thinking this over, I don't believe we can ever escape the normative, the thrust of our deep rooted convictions. In a sense, a fertilised egg is up to a certain point an organ of the mother's body and the mother ought to have the right to decide what to do with her body. However, this organism is a human being in potential and just like the mother ought to have rights. By way of thought experiment, imagine a situation where we are able to grow humans from human cells. Any human cell which contains the gentic code of that human can be grown into a human being. These cells are human beings in potential, a promise. So, when does the human being event take place? Potentially, we could argue on formation of the first cell, and by inference, could be destroyed when, say, washing one's hands or taking a shower. And such is life. We divide it up as best we can and we are faced with values in conflict. All actions are valued. Ideology is never escaped.

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@Deckard,

The status of the developing foetus is a vexed and vexing issue, and one which will never admit of a solution which will be acceptable to everyone. My personal view is that while abortion is indeed the choice of the individual, it is an extremely regrettable choice to have to take, and it should never be taken for granted or made light of.

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@jeeprs,

Ay, I completely agree with what you have written, Jeeprs. Thank you.

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Buddhism and abortion?

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