Krumple
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Mar, 2010 10:54 pm
@jeeprs,
jeeprs;146495 wrote:
I think it is impossible to respond to this. You have such a blinkered view of the matter, it is impossible to have an intelligent conversation with you about it. I should have known better than to try. Will remember this next time.


Why? All you had to do was give me an example of how religion is valuable.

If I am blinkered at all it is because you completely ignore all the negative elements that derive themselves and caused by religion. You can't just write off these things as if they never happened because you insult all those victims of persecution. I am being their voice to reason with you.

Ask the women who were strapped stones to their feet and forced into water how they feel about being persecuted? Do you believe they were witches and were casting spells and making potions to give to children so they could kidnap them and eat them?

Why don't you consult all those people who were killed for rejecting to accept Christianity?
0 Replies
 
north
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Mar, 2010 10:56 pm
@jeeprs,
jeeprs;146490 wrote:
I think the idea that understanding the way in which God made heaven and earth is a simple matter, is not really true. It comes from misunderstanding the nature of sciptural accounts. Of course, there are some who just swallow it literally - the young-earth creationists and people like that. But there are many more who understand that the scriptural accounts are neither literal accounts, nor failed scientific hypotheses. There are many 'creation stories' in world religious literature and while I don't think any of them are literally true, it is nevertheless not impossible that they contain intuitive insights or even actual 'revelations'.

For example, Thomas Aquinas had a very nuanced view of the matter. An essay on why Catholicism doesn't support Intelligent Design says that

Thomas Aquinas vs the Intelligent Designers


Quote:
Now at this point in time, both scientific cosmology and Darwinian theory come to a definite halt at a certain point when it comes to understanding the origins of life and the Universe. Cosmology can go right back to within mili-seconds of the start of the big bang, but no further. Darwinian theory cannot account for the origin of life. It can only account for the way species change, once life exists. In both cases, science can only hope that one day, it will understand the last steps in these sequences. But that too is a kind of faith. So dogmatic rejection of religion is very similar to dogmatic acceptance of it, in my view.


thats not the point of being athiest though

there is a life energy and non-life energy both are different

non-life , the Universe , the quasars , galaxies , suns , planets and moons

which produce the possibility on which life can take hold , given the enviroment

life NEEDS a certain enviroment in which to take hold a flurish

life CANNOT manifest just anywhere

so as an athiest I understand just that , that god cannot put life just anywhere god chooses

see my point ?
0 Replies
 
jeeprs
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Mar, 2010 11:12 pm
@sometime sun,
Of course the dreadful things you talk about have happened. I won't deny it for a second. But the Judeo-Christian ethos, in the broader sense, has also been responsible for the development of the idea of the person, human rights, hospitals, universities, and even science itself, along with much else that is distinctive and great about the western world. Most science up until the last century was conducted within Christian institutions. Even today religious institutions run thousands of hospitals and charities all over the world. Will you deny these have any value 'because they are religious'?

And it is NOT easy to be a religious believer. It is not just a matter of swallowing some ancient myth and saying 'that is the truth'. You have to be highly self-critical and live according to very high ethical standards if it is to mean anything. The fact that many exponents of it who fail to do this every day does not make it any less true.

Anyway life it too short to argue about this. There is a biblical christian on the forum who is on my banned list, not because I have any bad feelings towards him/her, but because I know exactly what the response will be when it comes to any question about religion. It's deja vu all over again.
Amperage
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Mar, 2010 11:24 pm
@jeeprs,
a wise man once said, "never judge a philosophy by its abuse."

If we throw out everything which has been abused we won't be left with anything.

It's hard for me to see why people like to use examples of the abuse of a philosophy as a reason why said philosophy should be abolished. And attempts to do so are clearly missing the underlying concepts of said philosophy
0 Replies
 
Krumple
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Mar, 2010 11:25 pm
@jeeprs,
jeeprs;146506 wrote:
Of course the dreadful things you talk about have happened. I won't deny it for a second. But the Judeo-Christian ethos, in the broader sense, has also been responsible for the development of the idea of the person, human rights, hospitals, universities, and even science itself, along with much else that is distinctive and great about the western world. Most science up until the last century was conducted within Christian institutions. Even today religious institutions run thousands of hospitals and charities all over the world. Will you deny these have any value 'because they are religious'?


But the saturation of religious people is too easy to claim it was religiously motivated. The only way you could know that it was because of religion these institutions arose would be to provide an environment full of atheists and see if such institutions would develop. If they would then you can't claim that it was religiously motivated.

jeeprs;146506 wrote:

And it is NOT easy to be a religious believer. It is not just a matter of swallowing some ancient myth and saying 'that is the truth'. You have to be highly self-critical and live according to very high ethical standards if it is to mean anything. The fact that many exponents of it who fail to do this every day does not make it any less true.


You see high ethical standards but I don't see a majority of them as being ethical or moral. They are so quick to persecute anyone not of their faith. Threaten them with the damnation of hell for not accepting their savior as being true. That if you were to give them political control they would outlaw anything outside of the faith. That is ethical behavior?

jeeprs;146506 wrote:

Anyway life it too short to argue about this. There is a biblical christian on the forum who is on my banned list, not because I have any bad feelings towards him/her, but because I know exactly what the response will be when it comes to any question about religion. It's deja vu all over again.


I don't feel the need to silence anyone. I have heard it all and if anything I assume that people who enter debate actually are willing to learn something. I know that not everyone wants to learn but instead they would rather dictate their beliefs. I accept people for having their beliefs but at the same time, my disbelief is just as worthy. If I can present a counter argument then why should I be silenced just because it might oppose some religious doctrine? I am skeptical, but I honestly want to learn. I find it hard to swallow some simple one liners when the reality does not support what is being sold. So I question it and provide my argument.

---------- Post added 03-30-2010 at 10:30 PM ----------

Amperage;146510 wrote:
a wise man once said, "never judge a philosophy by its abuse."

If we throw out everything which has been abused we won't be left with anything.

It's hard for me to see why people like to use examples of the abuse of a philosophy as a reason why said philosophy should be abolished. And attempts to do so are clearly missing the underlying concepts of said philosophy


Yeah but what do you do with a person who is abusive? Do you just ignore them and let them do their thing? Or do you call them on it? Do you try to prevent them from abusing any more?

I do not want to abolish religion. I want religion to keep itself to itself as it should be. It is funny because even Christians ignore that Jesus even said that you should not pray in public. He said you should hide yourself before you pray. Yet why are they so insistent in public prayer? Because it is that they don't care about what the teachings are, they only want to promote their dogma, their agenda, their power and control. It isn't about the teachings.
north
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Mar, 2010 11:39 pm
@jeeprs,
jeeprs;146506 wrote:
Of course the dreadful things you talk about have happened. I won't deny it for a second. But the Judeo-Christian ethos, in the broader sense, has also been responsible for the development of the idea of the person, human rights, hospitals, universities, and even science itself, along with much else that is distinctive and great about the western world. Most science up until the last century was conducted within Christian institutions. Even today religious institutions run thousands of hospitals and charities all over the world. Will you deny these have any value 'because they are religious'?


no

but just wish that it was more about Humanity , in the sense that Humanity without god

why ?

because in the end we end up reliant on god more than Humanity its self , which stunts Humanities growth

Quote:
And it is NOT easy to be a religious believer. It is not just a matter of swallowing some ancient myth and saying 'that is the truth'. You have to be highly self-critical and live according to very high ethical standards if it is to mean anything. The fact that many exponents of it who fail to do this every day does not make it any less true.


perhaps



Quote:
Anyway life it too short to argue about this. There is a biblical christian on the forum who is on my banned list, not because I have any bad feelings towards him/her, but because I know exactly what the response will be when it comes to any question about religion. It's deja vu all over again.


my only goal is for Humanity to change its thinking into , Humanity is first , believe what you want to believe , just make your own Humanity first

Paramount
0 Replies
 
Amperage
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Mar, 2010 11:40 pm
@Krumple,
Krumple;146511 wrote:
Yeah but what do you do with a person who is abusive? Do you just ignore them and let them do their thing? Or do you call them on it? Do you try to prevent them from abusing any more?

I do not want to abolish religion. I want religion to keep itself to itself as it should be. It is funny because even Christians ignore that Jesus even said that you should not pray in public. He said you should hide yourself before you pray. Yet why are they so insistent in public prayer? Because it is that they don't care about what the teachings are, they only want to promote their dogma, their agenda, their power and control. It isn't about the teachings.
I can't say right off hand because I'm about to go to bed but I think Jesus' intent behind saying that was to denounce the Pharisees(or perhaps others) who were praying in such a way as to draw attention to themselves as if it was a show vs. a thing between God and the person.
I would have to look this particular story up to be certain but I think I may be correct.

"Because it is that they don't care about what the teachings are, they only want to promote their dogma, their agenda, their power and control. It isn't about the teachings."

Really? Sure, you can say this about some believers but to try and insinuate that this is somehow all or even the majority, would be, I think, just flat out wrong.
jeeprs
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Mar, 2010 11:44 pm
@sometime sun,
I do really understand where you're coming from but I think there is a misunderstanding involved. I don't want to silence anyone but one has to pick one's battles, so to speak.
north
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Mar, 2010 11:57 pm
@jeeprs,
jeeprs;146516 wrote:
I do really understand where you're coming from but I think there is a misunderstanding involved. I don't want to silence anyone but one has to pick one's battles, so to speak.


what would be the essence though of the battle ?
0 Replies
 
Pepijn Sweep
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 Mar, 2010 01:32 am
@Amperage,
Amperage;146515 wrote:
I can't say right off hand because I'm about to go to bed but I think Jesus' intent behind saying that was to denounce the Pharisees(or perhaps others) who were praying in such a way as to draw attention to themselves as if it was a show vs. a thing between God and the person.
I would have to look this particular story up to be certain but I think I may be correct.

"Because it is that they don't care about what the teachings are, they only want to promote their dogma, their agenda, their power and control. It isn't about the teachings."

Really? Sure, you can say this about some believers but to try and insinuate that this is somehow all or even the majority, would be, I think, just flat out wrong.


I think Jezus pre-christian evangelic conquest was an admirable man. I respect his thoughts and have to admit it gives me good advice in life. That does not make me a christian, since I learn from more sources.

I think -to start with the most pretentious- Roman Catholic Church is way of course and needs another Reformation soon. It's loosing ground on all sides and cannot guide it's peoples anymore. I just see a degradation in western Churches, even in my Dutch Reformed Church. Never flexible we work together with Lutherans and other Protestants to re-vive a basic Christian Church in The Netherlands. A long way ahead.

A believer who never tested his believes is IMO a Pharisee who doesn't get his hands dirty. I would think it a nice ID if the joint cardinals&pope would grow their flowers next year themselves and decorate the St. Pieters square, and just the Vatican half as it should. Every Eastern is a Spring party in Rome. SDpring parties go way back in time and predate even Pesach.

People tend to copy. Why does the Washington DC Capitol looks like Saint Peter ? No originality left; we think we reached a high civilization level, but all we do is live as Byzantines, going through the motions without a moral adapted to modern times.

Pepijn Sweep
Magiste Ox:nonooo:
Pepijn Sweep
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 Mar, 2010 01:44 am
@Pepijn Sweep,
[CENTER]It becomes clearer now I write it down that I have no beef with God any-more; I learned to accept, adapt and learn for the Future. I just have the utmost disrespect for persons claiming representing God, Allah, Boeddha or call themselves Democrat or Republican and force US to believe so.

:bigsmile:
I thing Honesty is paramount. What you have to hide, a teen-age daughter soon to be mother, priests so perverted that gay people are disgusted so much we went to Mass together to protest the hypocrits (I am a babtized Protestant, do not do Hosti)

These were things on the surface. Any-one checked the moves of Mammon, the Free-mason ticket to Power? Dow down $ UP?
:detective:

I wish we could reley on God(s) for good managment, but I am afraid there will be all-ways a president in the way to a theocracy.

Pepijn Sweep bBA'88
Magister TYM:D
[/CENTER]
0 Replies
 
Alan McDougall
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Apr, 2010 03:10 am
@Krumple,
Krumple;146451 wrote:
First the baby would have to have the concept of god to be agnostic. A baby does not have a concept of god so it can not be agnostic.

---------- Post added 03-30-2010 at 07:58 PM ----------



Wrong a again Alan. You just keep perpetuating a lie to make yourself feel better.



Alan, don't you think god snapping his fingers and saying presto magico maketh the universe from nothing is not the same thing? You are completely ignoring the fact that if a god were to have created the universe, what did it make it from? This is how silly you are and how ignorant you are of your own argument. Tell me, if a god made the unvierse, what did that god use? Nothing?

Keep being ignorant Alan, at least you are being consistent.


It is you that does not get it , all the matter, energy, forces and space time fabric are part and parcil of the god-being itself. He did not have to find stuff from elsewhere to create the universe he created out of his own fundamental resources if you like.

Do you really think I am consistently ignorant and you are consistently correct, heck that would make you a demigod at least? Not fighting Krump Smile
Krumple
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Apr, 2010 03:48 am
@Alan McDougall,
Alan McDougall;147461 wrote:
It is you that does not get it , all the matter, energy, forces and space time fabric are part and parcil of the god-being itself. He did not have to find stuff from elsewhere to create the universe he created out of his own fundamental resources if you like.


Fundamental resources? Just keep making stuff up right Alan? What are the fundamental resources anyways? So there is god and then there is some fundamental resources? Thank you for the laugh.
Alan McDougall
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Apr, 2010 05:26 am
@Krumple,
Krumple;147476 wrote:
Fundamental resources? Just keep making stuff up right Alan? What are the fundamental resources anyways? So there is god and then there is some fundamental resources? Thank you for the laugh.


Not so God=Existence and existence=God. There is no separation between God and matter/energy etc. God is the primordial ONENESS of which we are a tiny part

I do not and never have prescribed to the ridiculous idea that there is a super entity sitting on some glorious throne. To me the Universe is but a small thought in the mind of God, just like you I are. he knew you before the creation of the universe! Why because you are part of him even if you do not like it.

You and I will one day stand before this oneness the mind of Infinity and explain your life to him. We all are accountable to a higher being after you die, this event will give one meaning and propose in life.

People like me who have had a profound near death experience all talk about a Being of Light and the fact when you finally meet him you go through a life review which is your whole life played off before both good and evil actions in your brief earthly life. This event might be hell to some despots and heaven to good loving and kind altruistic people

I am not an atheist because I was shown that there is a life after and beyond earthly death. If it were not so then the universe/god whatever have been playing a wicked game with us, by only giving one such a infinitesimal life within the vastness of eternity,
0 Replies
 
jeeprs
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Apr, 2010 05:40 am
@sometime sun,
I've always rather liked the idea of 'deity' as pure potentiality. So it is this kind of pregnant emptiness out of which everything manifests and to which everything returns. Hence beginning and end, alpha and omega. It is nowhere, but there is nowhere where it doesn't exist; nothing, but there is nothing apart from it.

I think modern physical cosmology is inherently and spookily religious also. All the scientific wise-guys seem to think that Science has put paid to Religion. I reckon Religion looks more plausible than it did 100 years ago, what with all the dark matter and energy, the quantum vacuum and the big bang.They used to talk about the God of the Gaps; I reckon nowadays the gaps are a whole lot bigger. And if it turns out that this particular Big Bang is only one of a series, the whole show looks an awful lot likeHindu cosmology.

---------- Post added 04-02-2010 at 10:42 PM ----------

Which prompts me to ask, who among the atheist contributors are specifically anti-Christian, or are they non-discriminating?
0 Replies
 
Marat phil
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Apr, 2010 05:49 am
@sometime sun,
atheist is fool

To deny God only on the basis of presence of sufferings is Ridiculously. People name harm and bad that kills us, expressly or by implication bears death. All that is connected with death. But God that just also offers immortality. After the Returning. Disbelief of silly people thus is based not on the strict scientific logic, and on cowardice, disbelief in the Miracle. If the person cannot believe in the Miracle - it not believer. You about "indifference of god to sufferings" cover with the statements the disbelief in Revival dead after a Last Judgement. Remember history sacrifice of the son? And so. Until you will not be ready to sacrifice to God the posterity, will not follow yet the Christ until then, you remain camels before an eye of a needle.

For the sake of the whole centuries in paradise, indulging in impetuous hedonism, every day opening new horizons, immortal and young, really you will not suffer On the earth some years. Except that and suffering that Are not great - all - that goodness & love to the people & nature...
Pepijn Sweep
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Apr, 2010 05:54 am
@Marat phil,
IMO

An A-Theist is not oposed to God(s), but Trusts Humanity to Rule Her Reaal

Some Humanists still pray. So do I.

Pepijn Sweep
Magister :bigsmile:X
north
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Apr, 2010 08:30 pm
@Pepijn Sweep,
Pepijn Sweep;147485 wrote:
IMO

An A-Theist is not oposed to God(s), but Trusts Humanity to Rule Her Reaal

Some Humanists still pray. So do I.

Pepijn Sweep
Magister :bigsmile:X


an athiest is opposed to god(s) period

and being an athiest does not devoid one of being a Good Human Very Happy
Pepijn Sweep
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Apr, 2010 11:55 am
@north,
north;148037 wrote:
an athiest is opposed to god(s) period

and being an athiest does not devoid one of being a Good Human Very Happy


My mistake in English. I think of anti-theist in my language. I am therefore a pan-theist. I am not opposed to gods but to Abrahamic God. I am against any-one who claims to be the Truth or only way to Hapiness.
Pepijn Sweep
 
  0  
Reply Mon 25 Mar, 2013 07:57 am
@Pepijn Sweep,
LOL
0 Replies
 
 

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