1
   

reincarnation is a bit silly...

 
 
Reply Tue 7 Jul, 2009 02:22 pm
I really don't get this reincarnation thing. Its weird that its a belief in some forms of buddism. It just seems to me like another way to help people stay attached to there ego.

I have alot of problems with this idea.

With reincarnation we would have to e someone then forget most of the things then manifest as a new born animal. This seem's really pointless to me. How can it really be YOU that reincarnates. Its not like we are born knowing anything. If we were put in a dark room as a baby we would have pretty much no consciousness when we are grown up. It just seem's completely ridiculous to me. Really just... WHY. If you have no consciousness attachment to your past lives how can it possibly be you. YOU are really everything.

Does anyone else feel this is just an idea to make people feel more attached to ego. It would be interesting if someone could explain this better. Maybe Im just missing something? Because from what i gather from the whole concept at the moment.. Its completely ridiculous!

Any help?
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Didymos Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Jul, 2009 02:43 pm
@glasstrees,
dwixi;75699 wrote:
I really don't get this reincarnation thing.


There are a great many versions of reincarnation.

dwixi;75699 wrote:
Its weird that its a belief in some forms of buddism.


In all forms of Buddhism as far as I know.

dwixi;75699 wrote:
It just seems to me like another way to help people stay attached to there ego.


Not in the Buddhist tradition.

dwixi;75699 wrote:
How can it really be YOU that reincarnates.


Depends on what you mean by "you". In Buddhism, it is not the ego that is reborn, but one's true self.

dwixi;75699 wrote:
Does anyone else feel this is just an idea to make people feel more attached to ego.


In many non-Buddhist explanations of reincarnation, it is most certainly another way for people to affirm their ego attachment.

Here's a place to start:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rebirth_(Buddhism)
glasstrees
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Jul, 2009 02:47 pm
@Didymos Thomas,
Didymos Thomas;75707 wrote:
There are a great many versions of reincarnation.



In all forms of Buddhism as far as I know.



Not in the Buddhist tradition.



Depends on what you mean by "you". In Buddhism, it is not the ego that is reborn, but one's true self.



In many non-Buddhist explanations of reincarnation, it is most certainly another way for people to affirm their ego attachment.

Here's a place to start:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rebirth_(Buddhism)



Thanks. I will check it out. The YOU bit confuses me. Do they not consider other people that they can see as also being them? Or is the YOU an ever altering perspective and other people they can see are repreentations of the possibilitys of what they could be?
0 Replies
 
William
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Jul, 2009 03:19 pm
@glasstrees,
Hello dwixi,

It is in our innate nature. It is the foundation that all of our religions are based on. Do we understand it? No. Then why is it there? What you might want to consider are the ramifications of what it is to think otherwise? How does a belief in a "terminal existence" affect our perception of life. The bottom like is "what's the use, we are all going to 'end' someday"! To hell with our posterity, let them figure it out? From a religious construct, god's going to destroy it anyway, right; and those who believe in this are actually looking forward to that divine destruction. Of course their pristine nature will be transported off to another Eden they can make a shambles of.

IMO, none of that makes sense. Not any common sense anyway. We can't even figure out where we put the remote control, much less understand our immortality. In my opinion, our continuum is the only thiing that makes sense. Any opposing thought leads to all kinds of problems. It creates a greed for life in that we are compelled to glean as much of it as we can before we are canned forever in that black hole of the grave. We rush to fill our gill to the brim until we can hold no more.

I will be the first to agree the majority of those who call this planet home are not guilty of having "such mores", but unfortunately it is those who are in control of this planet that do, or so they think.

Those mortal gods who have sat on the thrones of this planet would not hear of such rot as they could not imagine an existence of a "lesser self". It is they who espouse a heaven and a hell as some remote structure in that their godliness could never conceive their reign could lead to such a nether extreme as hell on Earth thus eliminating all antagonism to their rule. And it worked to. And it still is. Sad to say.

When in truth, the heaven or hell that will be experienced will be of our making and no one will be dismissed from their immortality and provided an "escape clause" as some seem to think. It's always been that way and considering what heaven could be leads me to believe we are in that hell in which we speak. Now it just depends on how much heat we can stand.

It is convenient to assume an end such as death being finite. Of course!! That allows one to justify their greed for life and the more who think this way, if they are wrong in their assumptions at least they will not make the trip alone. Misery does indeed love company.

All I can say my young friend, is try and attach yourself to these eternal thoughts and you will be amazed the change it will make in your life. and the lives of others you encounter. It absolutely releases you from the strangle hold of fear and truly sets you free. IMMHO.:a-ok:

William
glasstrees
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Jul, 2009 03:26 pm
@William,
William;75725 wrote:
Hello dwixi,

It is in our innate nature. It is the foundation that all of our religions are based on. Do we understand it? No. Then why is it there? What you might want to consider are the ramifications of what it is to think otherwise? How does a belief in a "terminal existence" affect our perception of life. The bottom like is "what's the use, we are all going to 'end' someday"! To hell with our posterity, let them figure it out? From a religious construct, god's going to destroy it anyway, right; and those who believe in this are actually looking forward to that divine destruction. Of course their pristine nature will be transported off to another Eden they can make a shambles of.

IMO, none of that makes sense. Not any common sense anyway. We can't even figure out where we put the remote control, much less understand our immortality. In my opinion, our continuum is the only thiing that makes sense. Any opposing thought leads to all kinds of problems. It creates a greed for life in that we are compelled to glean as much of it as we can before we are canned forever in that black hole of the grave. We rush to fill our gill to the brim until we can hold no more.

I will be the first to agree the majority of those who call this planet home are not guilty of having "such mores", but unfortunately it is those who are in control of this planet that do, or so they think.

Those mortal gods who have sat on the thrones of this planet would not hear of such rot as they could not imagine an existence of a "lesser self". It is they who espouse a heaven and a hell as some remote structure in that their godliness could never conceive their reign could lead to such a nether extreme as hell on Earth thus eliminating all antagonism to their rule. And it worked to. And it still is. Sad to say.

When in truth, the heaven or hell that will be experienced will be of our making and no one will be dismissed from their immortality and provided an "escape clause" as some seem to think. It's always been that way and considering what heaven could be leads me to believe we are in that hell in which we speak. Now it just depends on how much heat we can stand.

It is convenient to assume an end such as death being finite. Of course!! That allows one to justify their greed for life and the more who think this way, if they are wrong in their assumptions at least they will not make the trip alone. Misery does indeed love company.

All I can say my young friend, is try and attach yourself to these eternal thoughts and you will be amazed the change it will make in your life. and the lives of others you encounter. It absolutely releases you from the strangle hold of fear and truly sets you free. IMMHO.:a-ok:

William


Im not saying this would be the only way we can continue. I see our contounssiness as not just changing to another mortal state when we die but rising to a higher consciousness beyond are current mortal restrictions. Not one of infinite knowledge or anything, but one not attached to it's mortal ego. I know we have to consider reincarnation as a possibility. But I don't see how it is more of a reasonable assumption than any other possibility.
Didymos Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Jul, 2009 03:37 pm
@glasstrees,
These concepts in Buddhism are complicated when looked at from a purely academic perspective. My advice would be to check out some books on the subject. First and foremost, I recommend Robert Thurman's brilliant introduction to Buddhism Inner Revolution. Anything by Thurman, the Dalai Lama, or Thich Nhat Hahn should be immensely useful in helping you sort out these matters.

I have not given much of a response to your questions for two reasons: one, I am not so adept myself, and, two, given my own shortcomings in understanding, it is time consuming and difficult for me to put together responsible responses. Give me a day or two and I'll see if I can come up with something, assuming one of our other Buddhism enthusiasts has not already covered the concerns.

They are, by the way, great questions. I'm glad to see others with an interest in these subjects.
glasstrees
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Jul, 2009 03:40 pm
@Didymos Thomas,
Didymos Thomas;75734 wrote:
These concepts in Buddhism are complicated when looked at from a purely academic perspective. My advice would be to check out some books on the subject. First and foremost, I recommend Robert Thurman's brilliant introduction to Buddhism Inner Revolution. Anything by Thurman, the Dalai Lama, or Thich Nhat Hahn should be immensely useful in helping you sort out these matters.

I have not given much of a response to your questions for two reasons: one, I am not so adept myself, and, two, given my own shortcomings in understanding, it is time consuming and difficult for me to put together responsible responses. Give me a day or two and I'll see if I can come up with something, assuming one of our other Buddhism enthusiasts has not already covered the concerns.

They are, by the way, great questions. I'm glad to see others with an interest in these subjects.


Thanks Smile REading up alot on it now. Hopefully i will soon get a better grasp of it. Going to check out reincarnation in Hinduism too.
Didymos Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Jul, 2009 03:46 pm
@glasstrees,
Once you get a basic grasp of reincarnation in Hinduism and Buddhism, you can begin to compare the subtle differences between the two doctrines - which is amazingly interesting.

Come on LWSleeth! - I know you can handle these questions.
0 Replies
 
William
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Jul, 2009 04:17 pm
@glasstrees,
I think if you ease away from the term "reincarnation" and focus a little more on "re-birth", it might help you in your journey to reach a better understanding. I think if you did a little research into Constantine it might do you some good as to reaching an understanding why there is no mention of it in the Bible at least that I am aware of. DT might have more on that.

William
Didymos Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Jul, 2009 04:23 pm
@William,
Reincarnation refers to the process of birth-rebirth, as I understand it in Buddhism.

As for Christianity, reincarnation of some kind was popular among many early Christian sects, though I cannot recall any overt reincarnation teaching, though one can derive some form of reincarnation idea from some apocrypha.

Populist reincarnation among early Christians, like so many other ideas, were suppressed for the sake of Church continuity - which is what Constantine needed in order to hold together his crumbling empire.
0 Replies
 
Poseidon
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Jul, 2009 05:13 pm
@glasstrees,
Apparantly reincarnation was part of the Bible up until 334AD constantinople.
Them Romans took it out along with the commandment about not idol worshipping.

Reincarnation has always made sense to me.
More and more so as I get older.

What is so hard to believe about not remembering past lives?
We forget tons of stuff, most of it we cannot be aware of at any one time, it would clutter up our thinking, and focus on 'the now' would be less pristine.

The mind is a multi-dimensional entity. Its infinite.
The body only has 4 dimensions. Finite.

Which is real, and which is the facet?

Accepting that the essence of your being is not your body,
has to be the first step.

As for the Bible,
well, Christ was said to have always existed, 'before Adam, I am'
so his soul is said to have existed before his body,
it then incarnated into physical form,
it then 'gave up the ghost'
and yet returned in a tangible form after this,

I think its only a semantic dogmatist that insists that reincarnation is not in the bible.

Even an atheist should be able to see that christ actually incarnated "in the story" - even if the atheist does not believe the story - its still flipping incarnation of a distinct soul into a corporeal body that is being claimed.

For two thousand years there have been so many countless witness' to Christ,
and these people have thrived thereafter like no other people in this world have.

The empirical capacity for Christians to out-survive almost all other peoples in quality of life, shows that these people are most apt for survival, even in materialist terms,
just look at the incredible architecture - do you consider all those stunning churches to be designed by people that are 'silly'?

I think that to believe that a 4-dimensional entity is more real than a multi-dimensional entity - thats the silliest idea I have ever heard of.
William
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Jul, 2009 05:45 pm
@glasstrees,
I think there is a lot of truth in what you say, but the spectacular achievements, I don't think are what Christ was all about much less the condenscension that is associated with that of Christianity which can be noted a bit in your post, IMO. "Who are they not to recognize our "achievement", they must be "non-believers" and don't measure up, so to speak. I may be wrong in my interpretations and if I am please, I apoligize. It was a first impression I received from your post.

William
Justin
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Jul, 2009 09:59 pm
@William,
dwixi;75699 wrote:
I really don't get this reincarnation thing. Its weird that its a belief in some forms of buddism. It just seems to me like another way to help people stay attached to there ego.

I have alot of problems with this idea.

With reincarnation we would have to e someone then forget most of the things then manifest as a new born animal. This seem's really pointless to me. How can it really be YOU that reincarnates. Its not like we are born knowing anything. If we were put in a dark room as a baby we would have pretty much no consciousness when we are grown up. It just seem's completely ridiculous to me. Really just... WHY. If you have no consciousness attachment to your past lives how can it possibly be you. YOU are really everything.

Does anyone else feel this is just an idea to make people feel more attached to ego. It would be interesting if someone could explain this better. Maybe Im just missing something? Because from what i gather from the whole concept at the moment.. Its completely ridiculous!

Great question dwixie. I don't know that many of us actually understand reincarnation as much of the old writings and texts having to do with reincarnation were burned and or removed from the biblical text during the formation of the new religion under the power of the Great Emperor Constantine. Poseidon made some very good points regarding this.

William mentioned the natural reincarnation in nature. There's no question about it that nature does reincarnate constantly. Our physical body does as such every seven years or so. Giving and regiving is part of nature and while some may believe this is it for us, it's far from it. If we can observe how nature itself reincarnates constantly, there's no question of our own reincarnation IMHO.

Very good question, please share with us what you learn in your studies. I'd be interested in learning more about it as well... or at least some more of the history of it.

Where is lwSleeth?
richrf
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Jul, 2009 10:40 pm
@Justin,
Hi,

I am not sure about reincarnation, but I do think there might be a transcendental soul that spans multiple life times.

What is the evidence?: Inherited characteristics, innate abilities, natural talent, etc. The soul keeps learning and evolving.

We do forget, but not everything. Just like when we start a new game of Monopoly. We remember how to play and we get better at it. But we start anew, so that we can have ..... a fresh start. Smile

Rich
0 Replies
 
glasstrees
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Jul, 2009 05:17 pm
@Poseidon,
Poseidon;75763 wrote:
Apparantly reincarnation was part of the Bible up until 334AD constantinople.
Them Romans took it out along with the commandment about not idol worshipping.

Reincarnation has always made sense to me.
More and more so as I get older.

What is so hard to believe about not remembering past lives?
We forget tons of stuff, most of it we cannot be aware of at any one time, it would clutter up our thinking, and focus on 'the now' would be less pristine.

The mind is a multi-dimensional entity. Its infinite.
The body only has 4 dimensions. Finite.

Which is real, and which is the facet?

Accepting that the essence of your being is not your body,
has to be the first step.

As for the Bible,
well, Christ was said to have always existed, 'before Adam, I am'
so his soul is said to have existed before his body,
it then incarnated into physical form,
it then 'gave up the ghost'
and yet returned in a tangible form after this,

I think its only a semantic dogmatist that insists that reincarnation is not in the bible.

Even an atheist should be able to see that christ actually incarnated "in the story" - even if the atheist does not believe the story - its still flipping incarnation of a distinct soul into a corporeal body that is being claimed.

For two thousand years there have been so many countless witness' to Christ,
and these people have thrived thereafter like no other people in this world have.

The empirical capacity for Christians to out-survive almost all other peoples in quality of life, shows that these people are most apt for survival, even in materialist terms,
just look at the incredible architecture - do you consider all those stunning churches to be designed by people that are 'silly'?

I think that to believe that a 4-dimensional entity is more real than a multi-dimensional entity - thats the silliest idea I have ever heard of.


Its kinda the infiniteness of consciousness and existence that makes me think It's really abit silly. Its just. Time is just a dimension. So surely all these lives are really being lived out simatainiesly? What Makes more scense to me is that everyone i see and everyone i cant see is actually my consciousness living out a differnt life at the same time. Even people that have lived in the past and future.
TickTockMan
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Jul, 2009 05:29 pm
@glasstrees,
Now I'm really confused.

Earlier you said:

dwixi;75997 wrote:
Does anyone else feel this is just an idea to make people feel more attached to ego. It would be interesting if someone could explain this better. Maybe Im just missing something? Because from what i gather from the whole concept at the moment.. Its completely ridiculous!


Then you say:

dwixi;75997 wrote:
What Makes more scense to me is that everyone i see and everyone i cant see is actually my consciousness living out a differnt life at the same time. Even people that have lived in the past and future.


Are you for or against the ego?
glasstrees
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Jul, 2009 03:56 pm
@TickTockMan,
TickTockMan;75998 wrote:
Now I'm really confused.

Earlier you said:



Then you say:



Are you for or against the ego?



Im for ego. I think its cool. I mean it makes my scense of self. But at the same time. Attachment to ego. Thinking ego is all you are and getting to cuaght up in it. that is silly and leads to people klinging onto things unnecessary like religion.
0 Replies
 
grasshopper
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Jul, 2009 04:05 pm
@glasstrees,
I was not 100% current me before. This is not just because i have developed myself but because i believe there is a 'sea' like total energy and we are all parts of it and we are connected. I believe i have experienced something before this life i am living but it is not as simple as they say. Not that i was born as grasshopper and now i am an older, a developed grasshopper. I have taken some parts from others too, in the end we create one.
0 Replies
 
sss phil
 
  1  
Reply Thu 13 May, 2010 12:20 am
@glasstrees,
Quote:
Rebirth vs. Reincarnation

Although these terms are often used interchangeably, there is a significant conceptual difference between the two. On the whole, Buddhists believe in rebirth while Hindus, Jains, and some Christians believe in reincarnation. Strictly speaking, reincarnation means the assumption of another body by a permanent, eternal self (the Hindu notion of atman or the Christian notion of soul). Most Buddhists do not believe in a permanent self (anatman or anatta, without enduring self) but believe human consciousness (the "I" or self) dissolves at death and that only a subtle mindstream remains. The mindstream carries with it karmic imprints from prior lives (but not memories and emotions associated with prior lives, unless the person is a highly developed spiritual practitioner, in which case reincarnation is possible) and it is this subtle mindstream that conjoins with a new life-form after death. Thus, rebirth does not mean an identifiable human being assuming a new human body. Moreover, in Buddhism, rebirth is not always accomplished in human form. Depending on karmic circumstances, a human being can be reborn as an animal or as a being in any of the upper or lower realms.


Rebirth vs. Reincarnation Smile, there
0 Replies
 
Ergo phil
 
  1  
Reply Thu 13 May, 2010 08:56 am
@glasstrees,
Reincarnation is how monks have babies without having to deal with pregnant women. For example, the Dalai Lama XIV is a reincarnation of the XIII.

Monks cannot have children because of avowed chastity. So the way to propagate their lineage is to steal a baby from a village woman who gives up her baby to be raised by the monastery as reincarnation (magical) as opposed to birth (reality).

A great movie to watch concerning this is Unmistaken Child (2008). Watch a clip on YouTube:

YouTube - Independent Lens | UNMISTAKEN CHILD | Film Clip #1
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