1984

This book is great. Disturbing, yes. A nightmare. But great. I will never forget it. O'Brien (spelled right?) is one hell of a creation.

What I find disturbing is that everything in the book is happening. But we just shrug and carry on as if we have accepted it to be right. Oh, what I meant to say was, the government has our best interest in mind, we should gladly give up some liberty for security. We wouldn't have this great society and protection without a government, that's for sure.

The phrase is "essential liberty" for "temporary security". Have we done that?

Do you mean "have we compromised essential liberty for temporary security?"

In the 1984 society, there's no tolerance for debate. This was the nature of Communism... only one viewpoint was allowed... and anybody who held a conflicting viewpoint would either give it up or die. The danger of this wasn't recognized until Stalin had already taken over.

A lot of people think that the American government today is the exact opposite of that: conflict reigns to the point that no action is possible even on issues that clearly demand action. There's a good Intelligence Squared debate about the California government... whether it's broken because of the prevalence and power of popular propositions. CALIFORNIA IS THE FIRST FAILED STATE | Intelligence Squared US

You have changed the subject.

Could you support that statement factually?

The subject was about liberty and security. You changed it to something about conflict in government.

You have civil rights only if your government can be divided against itself.

What I find disturbing is that everything in the book is happening. But we just shrug and carry on as if we have accepted it to be right. Oh, what I meant to say was, the government has our best interest in mind, we should gladly give up some liberty for security. We wouldn't have this great society and protection without a government, that's for sure.

Well, there's no point in talking about civil liberty if there's no governmental conflict allowed. You have civil rights only if your government can be divided against itself. Governmental conflict can threaten security... just ask the Byzantines after the Ottoman folks blazed in. That's why civil liberties fade in importance during wartime... for instance Lincoln suspended the right to Writ of Habeus Corpus during the Civil War.

When I read 1984, the introduction to the book said Orwell was criticizing the British government's control over public opinion. The 20th century was full of heavy-handed propaganda. See I changed the subject again! Or did I?

But the conflict between security and liberty (whatever that comes to) is not the same conflict as a conflict within a government. "Things are what they are, and not another thing". Maybe they are connected. But they are not the same thing. And they are not the same subject.

You're absolutely right.