OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Mar, 2010 07:15 am
@gungasnake,
gungasnake wrote:
One obvious next step will likely involve firearms and the second amendment.
The idea would be to claim that ownership of such was
"bad for your health" and deny or restrict health care to firearm owners.
I already have health insurance; I don 't plan to buy anything else.
Do u predict that my carrier will inquire qua my gun ownership ?
gungasnake
 
  0  
Reply Mon 22 Mar, 2010 07:17 am
Then again, Bill O'Reilly seems to think that Obamacare will lead to 30% of doctors finding other lines of work:

http://bostonherald.com/news/opinion/op_ed/view/20100321whats_health_care_without_doctors/


Quote:
What’s health care without doctors?
By Bill O’Reilly
Sunday, March 21, 2010 - Added 1d 20h ago


If Obamacare becomes law, about 30 percent of the primary-care doctors in America will consider leaving the medical profession.

That bit of brightness comes from a survey by The Medicus Firm, the results of which were posted by The New England Journal of Medicine. Medicus interviewed more than a thousand American physicians, and 55 percent of them believe the quality of medical care in America will decline if the Democrats pass the current health-care reform proposals. Apparently, many of them want no part of it.

Although the media largely ignored the Medicus study, the story is huge. Perhaps as many as 30 million more Americans may have access to health insurance. The question is: Who will treat them?

The Bureau of Labor Statistics projects a 22 percent increase in practicing physicians over the next decade. But that will not be enough to treat the universal health-care crush, especially if a bunch of doctors now on the job pack it in.

There are essentially two reasons why Obamacare nauseates some doctors. First, control. Medical people simply do not want federal pinheads telling them how to treat their patients. The medical profession attracts intelligent, assertive people who are motivated to help others. This is not a docile crowd.

Second, money. Right now, many doctors are already seeing too many patients in order to pay the bills and provide a decent living for their families. Obamacare does nothing to bring down the outrageous expense of medical malpractice insurance, and it is likely to cut Medicaid and Medicare reimbursements.

Doctors can do the math. Their expenses remain high; their incomes decline. Again, these are smart people who could make good money doing something else.

In Canada and Great Britain, where socialized medicine is practiced, it is difficult to actually see a doctor in some places. Instead, nurses, physician assistants and other medical personnel fill the need. That is what could happen in the United States if the feds begin calling the health-care shots.

Not since the Iraq war has America been so divided on an issue. Yes, ideology is playing a part. Conservatives despise government intrusion in the marketplace, but liberals love it. Right now, however, most polls show that the majority has turned on Obamacare. The latest Wall Street Journal poll, for example, found 48 percent opposing and just 36 percent supporting.

Here’s my question: What would Marcus Welby, M.D., and Dr. Kildare say? These guys usually had the answers, back when wise doctors were the subjects of TV programs and health care seemed to be a glamorous profession.

Would Ben Casey support Obamacare? We know the “M*A*S*H” guys would. Dr. Jekyll might like it, but Mr. Hyde? I don’t know.

What I do know is that many Americans are sick of the whole health-care thing. And no prescription on earth will change that.

gungasnake
 
  0  
Reply Mon 22 Mar, 2010 07:19 am
@OmSigDAVID,
The prediction is that your present carrier goes under and you end up under government healthcare. That's what Rush and everybody else has been saying.
parados
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Mar, 2010 07:20 am
@gungasnake,
gungasnake wrote:

The prediction is that your present carrier goes under and you end up under government healthcare. That's what Rush and everybody else has been saying.

Oh.. so you are saying the free market doesn't work?

huh... that's an interesting argument there gunga.
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Mar, 2010 07:26 am
@parados,
parados wrote:
gungasnake wrote:

The prediction is that your present carrier goes under and you end up under government healthcare. That's what Rush and everybody else has been saying.

Oh.. so you are saying the free market doesn't work?

huh... that's an interesting argument there gunga.
I think he is arguing that the free market has been subverted by government.
MontereyJack
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Mar, 2010 07:29 am
the snake says"
Quote:
One obvious next step will likely involve firearms and the second amendment.
The idea would be to claim that ownership of such was
"bad for your health" and deny or restrict health care to firearm owners


Hey, good idea, gunga. I think i'll email it to my (liberal) congressman
0 Replies
 
MontereyJack
 
  2  
Reply Mon 22 Mar, 2010 07:38 am
And the snake says:
Quote:
The prediction is that your present carrier goes under and you end up under government healthcare. That's what Rush and everybody else has been saying.


Maybe you ought to talk to Walter Hintler, snake. Maybe Rush ought to too. There are all kinds of single-payer plans. As I understand it from his posts, the German system relies on government-mandated coverage through public and PRIVATE insurance companies. Has done since the system started in the 1880s. Costs about half of what our system does. Produces better longevity. Has a better doctor-patient ratio than ours does. We need more "failures" like that.
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  0  
Reply Mon 22 Mar, 2010 07:42 am
@OmSigDAVID,
What O'Reilly is saying is similar to the thing I quoted on the thread dealing with the Perons:

Quote:
But Perón failed to sustain these progressive changes over the long haul. All of the gains of the Perón era have disappeared as workers' lives and fortunes have gone downhill. What happened?

Basically Perón failed because his reforms were not radical enough. For example, although he raised rural wages and forced landlords to sell cheap to the AIPE, he refused to take the next step when they balked. He did not nationalize the land. Thus, the amount of land under cultivation dropped from nearly 22 million hectares in 1934-38 to just over 17 million in 1955. What you had was a producer's strike, not that much different from the kind Allende was confronted by.


The claim is that Peron was trying to have his cake and eat it at the same time i.e. to somehow retain the greater efficiency of having these market sectors in private hands, while yet subjecting them to his idea of benevolent control. The claim is that "producer strikes" brought about the conditions which led to the overthrow of the Peron government and O'Reilly seems to be predicting the same thing collapsing the Oinkbama scheme. Deju vu all over again...

Note the difference in the situations: The idea of government run health care would likely have been supported by 95% of the people in Peron's Argentina with its radical class/caste system. The American people clearly do not want the Oinkbama plan. Americans for the most part ALREADY HAVE health care plans of one sort or other. What the dems are talking about is taking all of that and redistributing it not only amongst the present owners but also to their own kept voting blocks as well as to their hoped-for voting blocks of the future including illegal aliens.









0 Replies
 
RexRed
 
  2  
Reply Mon 22 Mar, 2010 08:34 am
Perhaps the republicans of congress wouldn't mind going a year or more without health care, having their premiums jacked up and policies canceled in support of unborn fetuses. They should put their big business money where their mouth is if it means so much to leave million uninsured in lieu of their "conscience". Also no one mentioned that the new IRS agents may be in place to audit companies suspected of using government funds for abortion.
RexRed
 
  2  
Reply Mon 22 Mar, 2010 08:56 am
@gungasnake,
Bill O'Reilly is simply wrong...

I am sure doctors are going to leave their jobs to go and volunteer in the local soup kitchen... If there was more of a demand for news would Bill O'Reilly quit his job? I am surprised Bill is gullible enough to have swallowed this right wing tripe. Bill has been spending too much time in the Fox News green room... I expect more from Bill to be more like a sharp tack instead of a pinhead. There are still plenty of loyal practicing doctors in Canada, England and France. With more of a pool of Americans needing help and paying into the system there will be more revenue to reward "good" doctors for their quality services, medical contributions and innovations to health care. Larger demand eventually creates larger supply.
gungasnake
 
  0  
Reply Mon 22 Mar, 2010 09:07 am
@RexRed,
There are about a half dozen real issues I have with republicans and conservatives, two of them large, and those two are "right2life(TM)" and the "War on Drugs". By contrast, pretty much everything democrats and libs ever do is some sort of an issue and even their stand on abortion is no more honest or well thought out than that of the pubbies; in fact the war on drugs is really the biggest problem I have with pubbies.

Worst possible case if Roe/Wade should ever go down says that some chick living in S. Dakota who has to fly to NY for abortions more than once might decide she'd be better off staying in NYC that second time and not come back. That just isn't any sort of cosmic disaster, but Germany, Japan, and Russia are all on the edge of catastrophic situations right now from staggeringly low birth rates and the only thing keeping our own birth rate above water at present is immigrants, many if not most of whom are detrimental to the nation's economic health.

The abortions you really want to get rid of are not the rape or genetic problem cases; they're the cases of 17 or 20 year old girls wanting abortions to "keep their lives from being ruined" which, 120 years ago, would have been 17 or 20 year old married women happily having first children. What is actually needed is national policies to once more make it possible for people to marry and start families at 17 or 20 i.e. at the age for which we're biologically programmed for it, and not at 25 or 35 with careers in the way of it. Again, I don't hear anything like that from either party.

In 1956 there was a lottery of sorts in which a certain number of teenage girls were providing children for adoption by married couples, and conservatives need to get used to the idea that that lottery is not coming back.

I mean, I hear people say things like "Oh my God, those lunatic Christians and Republicans are gonna force me to have five more kids!!" and my reply is that for what the dems are gonna cost you, you could AFFORD five more kids...
0 Replies
 
RexRed
 
  2  
Reply Mon 22 Mar, 2010 09:10 am
@gungasnake,
Yes Americans can be that stupid when they are clinging to life by the feeding tube of Fox News...
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  0  
Reply Mon 22 Mar, 2010 09:11 am
@RexRed,
Quote:
Bill O'Reilly is simply wrong...



Don't bet money on it. Anybody capable of surviving the gauntlet which produces doctors is capable of a lot of different things.
RexRed
 
  2  
Reply Mon 22 Mar, 2010 09:17 am
@gungasnake,
I am sure many young people who are awed by the idea of health care for all are considering becoming doctors as we speak. The seeds of inspiration toward a kinder more compassionate America are being sown by the democratic party... This will inspire many young impressionable minds toward careers in the medical profession. Existing doctors and medical professionals when in more demand will become of more value not less... Thus they will be paid more not less when there is more money to go around that is not being sucked up into the insurance companies and tossed away in wasteful practices..
gungasnake
 
  0  
Reply Mon 22 Mar, 2010 10:04 am
@RexRed,
Quote:
The seeds of inspiration toward a kinder more compassionate America are being sown by the democratic party...


Kinda like the seeds of a kinder and more compassionate Chicago being sewn by Al Capone.....

BWWAAAAAAAAAahaaaahaaaaaaaaaaaaahhaaaaahaaaaahhhaaaaaa haaaaaaaaaaaaahaaaa haaaaaaaaaaaaahaaaaaaaahaaaaa......

I mean, the good news if there is any, is that it actually is possible to grow out of being brainwashed like that. I'm actually a case in point; it took me about seven or eight years of living in the real world to grow out of it.
0 Replies
 
MontereyJack
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Mar, 2010 10:59 am
gunga, you clearly haven't lived in any other developed nation then, or you'd know better. still a little short on real world experience, boy.
gungasnake
 
  0  
Reply Mon 22 Mar, 2010 05:43 pm
@MontereyJack,
I know that most of the analogies you'd try to draw between the US and other countries are false ones. There is no shortage of countries or, at least in the recent past there has been no shortages of places in which the idea of govt. run healthcare would have been supported by a vast majority of the people since otherwise decent healthcare was a prerogative of the wealthy.

Such a situation has not existed in the US over the last century. Most Americans in fact have some sort of health coverage and are exceedingly loath to trade their existing programs for oinkbamacare. What we are seeing is a false populism which might benefit ten percent of anybody in the land while harming everybody else while simultaneously creating a gigantic bureaucracy which nobody wants.

Even if this piece of **** DOES go through, you should not anticipate it lasting past the elections of 2012.



RexRed
 
  2  
Reply Mon 22 Mar, 2010 08:49 pm
@gungasnake,
The idea that this is of government run health care is absurd, Government doctors, government universities, government insurance... they are still operated by the private sector. Just because it is universal does not mean it is government, it just means it is governed by fairness and equality. Liberty cannot exist without equality.
0 Replies
 
MontereyJack
 
  2  
Reply Mon 22 Mar, 2010 09:57 pm
gungasnaKKKe, this is not an analogy, this is fact:

The US is the only major industrial country without some sort of single-payer health system. Those systems take many different forms, INCLUDING ONES WHERE PRIVATE INSURANCE COMPANIES ARE PART OF THE GOVERNMENT-DIRECTED MIX (e.g. Germany). By comparison with just about every one of those systems, the US is at or near the bottom in longevity, public health metrics like infant mortality, patient satisfaction with the system, and the ratio of doctors to patients (we have more patients per doctor). We do however lead the rest of the world in two very expensive categories: administrative costs of the US system run around 25 to 30%. Administrative costs in single-payer systems (including US Medicare), run around 5 to 6%. AND THE US PAYS AROUND TWICE AS MUCH PER PERSON IN HEALTH COSTS AS ANY SINGLE-PAYER SYSTEM DOES, and a higher pecentage of GDP. Those, I repeat, are FACTS, not analogies.

I warn you, it's not gonna format well, but here's a convenient-for-comparison data tablefrom the wikipedia article "Health Care System"

Cross-country comparisons
Direct comparisons of health statistics across nations are complex. The Commonwealth Fund, in its annual survey, "Mirror, Mirror on the Wall", compares the performance of the health care systems in Australia, New Zealand, the United Kingdom, Germany, Canada and the U.S. Its 2007 study found that, although the U.S. system is the most expensive, it consistently underperforms compared to the other countries.[11] A major difference between the U.S. and the other countries in the study is that the U.S. is the only country without universal health care. The OECD also collects comparative statistics, and has published brief country profiles.[12][13][14]

Country Life expectancy Infant mortality rate Physicians per 1000 people Nurses per 1000 people Per capita expenditure on health (USD) Healthcare costs as a percent of GDP % of government revenue spent on health % of health costs paid by government
Australia 81.4 4.2 2.8 9.7 3,137 8.7 17.7 67.7
Canada 80.7 5.0 2.2 9.0 3,895 10.1 16.7 69.8
France 81.0 4.0 3.4 7.7 3,601 11.0 14.2 79.0
Germany 79.8 3.8 3.5 9.9 3,588 10.4 17.6 76.9
Japan 82.6 2.6 2.1 9.4 2,581 8.1 16.8 81.3
Norway 80.0 3.0 3.8 16.2 5,910 9.0 17.9 83.6
Sweden 81.0 2.5 3.6 10.8 3,323 9.1 13.6 81.7
UK 79.1 4.8 2.5 10.0 2,992 8.4 15.8 81.7
USA 78.1 6.7 2.4 10.6 7,290 16.0 18.5 45.4

Efficiency and effectiveness of service are the focus of these profiles. Perhaps most efficient is Healthcare in Taiwan, costing 6 percent of GDP (~1/4 US cost, allowing for GDP differences), universal coverage by a government-run insurer with smart card IDs to fight fraud.

Life Expectancy vs Health Care Spending in 2007 for OECD Countries. The data source is http://oecd.org and the image was built at http://flagscatter.com



You lot scotched a full-blown public option, gunga. Real-world experience in twenty countries and over generally half a century (and in some cases a centuryor more), PROVE that what you call "socialized medicine" works better and is far, far cheaper than this crap we've got. the closer Obamacare gets to that, the better off the country will be. As soon as that truth starts sinking in, you lot are toast.

maporsche
 
  0  
Reply Tue 23 Mar, 2010 04:28 am
@MontereyJack,
You cannot compare administrative costs of Medicare, which is able to offer the same policy across state lines, to a private health care company which has basically 50 different plans to comply with every different state law.

If you want to see administrative costs drop, allow private companies to sell insurance across state lines, just like we allow Medicare to do.
 

 
Copyright © 2024 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.03 seconds on 05/16/2024 at 11:34:54