tsarstepan
 
  1  
Reply Mon 4 Jan, 2010 12:29 am
@ossobuco,
Quote:
"stoneware" in the refrigerator.

((gasp)) Dearie me! I feel the vapors coming on ... feeling woozy and dizzy ... <<kuh-thud>>
Wink
0 Replies
 
sullyfish6
 
  1  
Reply Mon 4 Jan, 2010 07:42 am
Cooked food should be brought to cool temperatures ASAP.
In fact, restaurants will cook large amonts of food and place it in the walk in refrigs. immediately. It's a healith dept. requirement.

My issue in your scenario is the passage of TIME for the cool down and then poasible re-heat.

The crock pot is the initial cooking tool, not for food storage. And I would not store things in the original wok after stir frying, either.

Tai Chi
 
  2  
Reply Mon 4 Jan, 2010 07:49 am
Well of course I have an opinion on this -- feel free to ignore. I would never store food in the fridge in the crockpot because it takes up too much room! And makes the crockpot unavailable for more crockpotting. Surely reheating leftovers in the crockpot is extremely inefficient? I store leftovers in one-person-meal-size glass containers if microwaving. Large amounts I reheat gently on the stove. (I haven't killed anyone yet.)
farmerman
 
  2  
Reply Mon 4 Jan, 2010 08:13 am
@Tai Chi,
We never use the 'pot to store foods because the damn thing is huge. I think that its not a concern about bactee. Its more a concern about stupid people shoving a boiling hot piece of stoneware into a fridge or taking a cold stoneware out of a fridge and then heating it up in the 'pot cradle.

Crockpots are great for making chili.
BorisKitten
 
  1  
Reply Mon 4 Jan, 2010 09:27 am
@ossobuco,
Quote:
I used to be a bacteriologist. Don't just whoof me with phoo.

I think I might have to change my quote-line to this, Osso. Love it!

I always kinda wondered why you're not 'sposed to put the crock pot in the fridge afterwards.

I usually use those crock-pot liners. Then I lift the liner out and stick it in a bowl in the fridge, just 'cause it's smaller than the crock pot. Also never killed anyone this way.
0 Replies
 
roger
 
  2  
Reply Mon 4 Jan, 2010 02:31 pm
@ossobuco,
ossobuco wrote:


What do you mean that some bacteria can be well established in cooking time, is that true? That's a lazy comment.




But that isn't what I said. The time involved between cooking temperatures and proper refrigeration is the time I was speaking of. Too much time in a healthy temperature range for some bacteria.

I had a crock at one time and tried to use it for sloppy joe and spaghetti sauce. I did use the crock for storage with no detectable ill effects, though it turns out that that was not a good use of the crock for other reasons.
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Mon 11 Jan, 2010 03:19 pm
@sullyfish6,
The passage of time after I shut if off and refrigerate is very little, under ten minutes and probably under five... and the contents will have been cooking four to eight hours - if four, at high temperature for a good part of that, if eight, then at bubbling temperature for a good length of time.

On killing salmonella, a quick check which fits what I remember -
http://askville.amazon.com/temperature-long-kill-salmonella-common-household-bacteria/AnswerViewer.do?requestId=1829676
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Mon 11 Jan, 2010 03:21 pm
@farmerman,
Well, I do usually rest the pot on oven mitts set on the glass. Mine is a small pot - 2 quarts. I only reheat by putting some soup or stew in a bowl and microwaving.
0 Replies
 
Mame
 
  1  
Reply Mon 11 Jan, 2010 03:36 pm
I don't see any health risk with keeping your chili in your crock pot, either, but putting hot food into a cold refrigerator is a bad idea for your fridge. It makes it work harder to get back to the cold temp and maintain it, regardless of what container you put your hot food into.
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Mon 11 Jan, 2010 03:40 pm
@Mame,
Nods to that. But as Sully said, "Cooked food should be brought to cool temperatures ASAP. In fact, restaurants will cook large amonts of food and place it in the walk in refrigs. immediately. It's a healith dept. requirement." S0, any hot food in any dish.
Mame
 
  1  
Reply Mon 11 Jan, 2010 04:33 pm
@ossobuco,
Just saying it's not good for your fridge. Likely walk-in coolers are built to deal with that, but there wasn't a lot of hot stuff going in there, actually, where I worked. When we precooked pasta, we ran cold water over it and drained it, so it wasn't warm. And we put our stews, soups, etc into food pails with the lids off in the walk-ins for a bit before lidding them.

Not to mention the health inspectors do not come by checking on how you're dealing with that sort of thing. They're there to check on rodents, insects, general sanitation, first aid kits, the state of your sinks and dishwashers, etc. They wouldn't have any idea if the food just came out of the cooler or was just going into it. They never asked one question about the food or food prep when I was working in restaurants.

And bacteria doesn't start to grow until it's been at room temp for a couple of hours, anyway, which is a perfectly fine temp to go into the fridge.
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Mon 11 Jan, 2010 04:46 pm
@Mame,
I figure that's true in practice, re the inspectors..
Also figure the public health department, or whatever it is called in a given place, writes up about refrigeration being prompt.. at least in some jurisdictions.
And bacteria wouldn't start to grow, assuming it was dead at spending some time at 140, unless new bacti got in, which could happen sans a lid or with spoon licking by the cook. With a lid, even resting not tight on the pot so the pot can bubble and let out steam, I'm just not worried.

On a whole new bowl that is itself presumably not fully sterile, not having been boiled before adding food - I'd trust the stonewear pot before I would that one.
The benefit of the new bowl is that it would cool the food a bit as it's added. Not sure that beats fast refrigeration.

As I mentioned before though, I don't know about spore bearing bacteria. Should look it up, I guess ..
Mame
 
  1  
Reply Mon 11 Jan, 2010 05:14 pm
@ossobuco,
"When food is cooked and left out for more than 2 hours at room temperature, bacteria can multiply quickly. Most bacteria grow undetected because they don’t produce a bad odor or change the color or texture of the food. Freezing food slows or stops bacteria’s growth but does not destroy the bacteria. The microbes can become reactivated when the food is thawed. Refrigeration also can slow the growth of some bacteria. Thorough cooking is needed to destroy the bacteria."

Bacteria Growth

Bacteria simply multiply by splitting in half. Under the ideal conditions, they can double in number every 15 to 30 minutes. This means that one single bacterium could multiply to a million in less than 6 hours.

What do bacteria need to multiply?

Food " Some from of food is a basic requirement for bacteria to grow.

Moisture " Water is required for bacteria in order to absorb food. Dry foods will not support bacterial growth. As well, foods with very high salt or sugar content make bacteria unable to use the moisture present.

Temperature " Bacteria grow best at warm temperatures between 40 and 140°F. This temperature range is what we call the food danger zone.

Air " Most bacteria require oxygen to grow, but not all. There are some exceptions, one type of bacteria being botulism.

Time " When bacteria are introduced to a new environment, they need time to adjust before they start to grow. This time is called the lag phase and last about one hour.

How is bacteria transferred?

Bacteria are carried from one place to another by being carried. This can happened by peoples hands, coughs, other food, utensils, equipment, water, or pests.

Preventing Bacteria Growth

Now that we know how bacteria grow and are spread; we should be able to prevent food-borne illness by following three simple steps.

1. Keep bacteria from spreading by not letting anything that might contain bacteria tough the food. This includes people, dirty equipment, utensils and possibly other foods.

2. Stop bacteria from growing by taking away the conditions that encourage growth. The most effective way is to keep food out of the danger zone. Keep foods below 40°F and about 140°F

3. Finally kill the bacteria. Most bacteria are killed if they are subject to a temperature above 165°F for 30 seconds. This is how we make food safe by cooking. This heat is also how we sanitize dishes and equipment. Certain chemicals (such as bleach) also kill bacteria. Using sanitizing agents is best way to sanitize counter tops and large equipment.

(That was from another site)

And this one deals with putting hot foods into the fridge - I'd forgotten that in the restaurant we usually chilled the pails of soups, etc in sinks full of ice for quite a while.

http://www.ochef.com/648.htm

And here's another one:

Don't be afraid to put hot foods in the refrigerator. The appliance is made to cool down foods. The chilling process will happen more quickly in the fridge, once again giving bacteria less time to grow in the temperature danger zone of 40 - 140 degrees Fahrenheit. If you have a large casserole or dish that needs to be chilled, separate the foods into smaller, shallow (no more than 3" deep), individual containers for faster cooling. It can take a pot full of hot chicken soup 24 hours to cool to a safe temperature in the refrigerator! Divide and conquer bacteria!

Don't overload the refrigerator. There should be enough space between foods that air can freely circulate around them. This way the temperature will be more even throughout the appliance.

Foods that need refrigeration should be placed in the refrigerator within 2 hours after eating to help prevent bacteria growth. If the ambient temperature is more than 80 degrees Fahrenheit, that time safety zone shrinks to 1 hour. Don't violate this rule!!!
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Mon 11 Jan, 2010 06:00 pm
@Mame,
That's pretty good as a link. I never cook giant pots of stuff, but I'd divide it as they say if I did. I can see if it was a regular pan that putting it in ice first could be smart, and that's a strike against the stoneware crockpot dish as very hot to ice could be a problem (dunno, re the stoneware).

On bacterial growth, studying all that at length was part of my major, but it's been a while. I do remember spores - which some but not all bacteria have - and the autoclave, a pressure instrument, was a good way to get rid of them for sterility.
I have to look up where spores might show up in food, forget the list. I think they're in dirt (the clostridia) but I rarely throw dirt in a pot.. but I think it's Farmerman who used to talk about dirt hidden in scallions.




adds - botulism is from a Clostridium. Wonder it you tossed in a jar of home preserved tomatoes with C. botulinum if eight hours in the Crock would get rid of the spores. I'm doubting, but not sure.
0 Replies
 
 

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