Intellectual confidence.

Reply Mon 15 Jun, 2009 08:00 pm
Concise is a learned art. There are very few on A2K who are expert at concise. Dont look at me, I dont even have spelling down yet.
You should work on concise because , many times , in a debate, the more you say, the more rope you give to your opponents to hang you with.
0 Replies
Reply Tue 16 Jun, 2009 01:06 am
@The Pentacle Queen,
The Pentacle Queen wrote:

Is it possible to gain 'intellectual confidence' as in,
get better at explaining your arguments...
making them more concise, using better language?

Yes; energy follows thought. Point your mind in that direction
and apply your time to its pursuit. Be persistent.
U can buy some books on the subject or go to the public library.
Reading, in general, will intensify your facility with language.
Descriptive word groups will commend themselves to your memory.
Proceed at your own chosen pace.

The Pentacle Queen wrote:

I think about when I joined a2k, I was 16.
I used to be shot down all the time for making irrational points,

U shoud not be negatively influenced by the folks on this forum.
Don 't let them intimidate u.
No matter how rational your arguments are, some of them
will deny their rationality either because thay are not
smart enuf to understand them,
because u have disproven some position that thay hold dear
and thay r not intellectually honest enuf to admit it.
If u know and understand that (applicable anywhere, not just on this forum)
u can sustain greater confidence.
If your arguments r so persuasive as to cause your hearer to doubt his core values,
he or she can react emotionally i.e., with fear n anger. U can judge your OWN work.
Don 't trust an adversary to decide if u r rational.

The Pentacle Queen wrote:
but then you learn how to debate and structure arguments logically
and it becomes a lot easier.

Practice makes perfect.
If u wish to convince someone of something,
u probably have a reason to do that. U can begin your organization
project by asking yourself to identify all of the reasons
that u desire to change someone 's mind. Don 't rush it; with time,
u may well think of a few extra points, or think of good ways to deliver them.
I suggest that u make a written list of your arguments,
preferrably beginning with your strongest arguments.
It is more likely that your listener will hear the beginning
of your presentation than the end. Be alert for inconsistencies
in your opponent 's position. If circumstances are appropriate,
u can show him how he will benefit more from your suggestions
than he woud from his own. Demonstrate that it is in his enlightened
self interest to adopt your ideas. If there r flaws in your argument,
u may wish to address them yourself and to ameliorate them,
rather than just hope that he does not notice and no one will tell him.

The Pentacle Queen wrote:

Because I have very few people to debate with outside the cyber world,
and don't have 'intellectual' parents, I find it quite a pressure to put
my points across, and I always walk away from a conversation
wishing I'd said things differently.

Such is the human condition.
If the subject matter of the argument is sufficiently important
to u to justify it, u might organize your thoughts on paper, edit them,
let them rest, or maybe sleep on it. U may get hit in the head with an inspiration
on how to present a point that is incisive and memorable. Maybe inject some sly humor,
pointing out errors of the point of vu that u wish to discredit.
That will make your point more memorable.
U can orchestrate your presentation and even choreograph it for optimal effect,
if u think its worth it. (It used to be worth it to me, when I was doing my sword n shield work
in front of juries; being persuasive and memorable mattered.)

The Pentacle Queen wrote:

My tutor today said I need to find like minded people I can debate with.
I got the feeling he meant he felt it would help me improve
my ability to discuss my ideas.

That 's right; u can sharpen your skills with continued practice.
U need a sparring partner.

The Pentacle Queen wrote:

I'd never thought that I could 'get better' at this kind of thing.
I just thought it's either a case of being articulate or not,
and that I'm not as articulate as I would like to be.
Maybe it is just because I have no intellectual confidence.
pq x

As Hawkeye correctly pointed out:
confidence will come with success and more success.
In some cases, u might deem it worth your effort
to enhance your credibility, proving your points by quoting
respected sources, especially when u r discussing events
to which u were not a witness. For instance, if u r discussing crime,
u might quote FBI statistics. If discussing accidental injuries,
u might quote the National Safety Council.
That will prepare u to defeat the skepticism of "O, yeah? How do YOU know ?"

The most important advice that I can offer,
is: think ahead and BE PREPARED to cogently lay out the fullness
of your argument and to deflect or disprove the trusts of counterargument.

Its also very important to keep a cool head.
Your weapon is your skilled mind,
not your ungoverned emotions.

If u can finish your presentation with a memorable
or humorous BANG, it will be that much the better.
Reply Tue 16 Jun, 2009 03:58 am
i like this thread.

i used to debate things, then i realized i knew the answers to everything i wanted to debate about

god is either here, or hes not.

i excel in grammarz, so i shall take this time to point out that speaking correctly and being precise will win arguments from time to time.

(i am thinking about the lawyer profession oddly enough, due to those two points and how they relate to my skills in winning arguments)

Very Happy

oh yeah, u want to debate and win? read, read read, learn, read, listen, watch.

and dont be stupid. the last thing is the hardest. ive tried arguing with idiots..

theres a thing about them, people who are incompetent act the most confident!

dont let loud people scare you.
0 Replies
The Pentacle Queen
Reply Tue 16 Jun, 2009 05:06 pm
dlowan wrote:

It is.

Erm...aren't your tutorials helping with this?

Are you studying where you can hang out a bit? Often the best and funnest debates happen when groups of students get together over coffee or drinks and have at it.

Are there subject clubs where you study? They can be great fun and you certainly learn to think and speak fast.

Debate clubs are fun...sounds good to me.

My tutorials are, but I've only had 2 so far...
I am studying classical music, but musicology/aesthetics/cultural theory more than the practical side.
I have 2 friends I can talk to, and I never see one of them. This is it. The rest don't really want to talk about things 'properly.'
0 Replies
The Pentacle Queen
Reply Tue 16 Jun, 2009 05:07 pm
ossobuco wrote:

Also, how old are your parents? From my point of view, they are probably young and still learning, if they have any interest in learning. Learning comes in layers.

Describe 'layers' please.
My parents are older, my mum was 40 when she had me and my dad was 43.
Reply Wed 17 Jun, 2009 11:03 pm
@The Pentacle Queen,
I was a top student in high school. I was good at every subject math, science, history, geography, art (I won prizes in drawing and painting) except poetry as I hated learning anything by heart. I use the simplest arguments but use my knowledge to present arguments and facts. It is a good idea to bone up on your general knowledge to present examples to buttress your points of arguments. For example, there seemed to be a person or persons who were Ayn Rand supporters always arguing about how selfishness was at the root of all our actions and thoughts. When you only use words and philosophical arguments you cannot convince them. The best way was by means of a practical example. The best way to illustrate Ayn Rand's silliness was that the car Ayn Rand would design would have a monstrous engine with no steering wheel, brakes, carburation or gas pedal with only a stop-start switch. Steering wheels, carburators, brakes, gas pedals are control devices. Ayn Rand is all about the motive power (selfishness) with no controls (regulation or societal norms). It is recipe for disaster.

Another was Bible-thumpers who reciting passages from the Bible. I actually read the Bible as a book of Literature and not a Holy book years ago out of curiosity and had a general idea of all the Biblical events. I have the Bible so I merely took out passages that contradicted the Bible-thumpers. Using philosophical arguments just doesn't cut with the Thumpers they need to see the Biblical text chapter and verse.
0 Replies
Reply Wed 17 Jun, 2009 11:19 pm
@The Pentacle Queen,
My mother was about 41, and father about 36...young, in a way, for them.
Reply Wed 17 Jun, 2009 11:27 pm
Layers, give me a few days..
Reply Wed 17 Jun, 2009 11:39 pm
In the meantime, "I need to talk about things properly." This sounds rigid. All have to fit your construct(s)? I think I've followed some of your course, PQ, but it is hard to remember.

I need to think about what to say, as I appreciate who you are. But, not to be noxious, I'm beginning to think you define yourself as different from the masses.

A kind of clueless. (which sounds like a slam, but is a question.)
0 Replies
Reply Thu 18 Jun, 2009 05:37 am
@The Pentacle Queen,
The Pentacle Queen wrote:

Apologies in advance because I've made a few threads like this.

Is it possible to gain 'intellectual confidence' as in, get better at explaining your arguments... making them more concise, using better language? ....
pq x

My feeling is that both talent and practice play roles. To answer your question directly, I am sure that one can improve dramatically at debate.
0 Replies

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