RIGHT WING, REACTIONARY POPE?

@georgeob1,

Quote:

I have no particular opinion about the current Pope except to note that his current focus on a rather more conservative orthodoxy is generally consistent with the Church's historical reversion to its norms after a period of - in its terms - significant change.

I think this is a reasonable observation. I would point out, though, that now is a particularly bad time for such a reversion (in the terms of the church's goals, at least). The "liberation theology" inspired by the Second Vatican Council and by parish priests seeking to console and support their parishioners in the face of government brutality in central and South America has now been co-opted by Protestants. I think i am correct in saying that the Catholic Church is losing adherents to Protestant missionaries in central and South America at a rate which ought to be alarming to central church authority.

Returning to the matter of the mass, all of us here who learned to serve the mass in Latin, and who learned Latin as well, have an understanding which i suspect most other young adherents have not had and aren't likely to acquire in the future. One of the reasons that i regret not having studied Latin when i was eight and nine years of age is that by the time i got to High School, the Latin teacher was gone, and the school had dropped Latin. As time goes by, i think it is less and less likely that young members of the Catholic church understand the Latin, and the use of the vernacular affords a means for them to understand the liturgy in terms more significant than just a pleasant music (music in the literal sense, and in the sense of a spoken or chanted language). I think that reversion to a Latin mass (which i don't think is likely to ever happen, now) would simply jerk the rug from under kids who even now have many distractions from the contemplation of religious mysteries.

I say that as a well known atheist here, but that doesn't mean that i am incapable of seeing the Catholic church in its own terms. As for this thread in general, Catholicism remains a significantly large and powerful institution in the the world, and the papacy is the office of a powerful man.

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@Frank Apisa,

Frank Apisa wrote:

I could probably serve Benediction still...with a bit of help from some Latin card prompts.

I think I could sing both Tantum Ergo...and O Salutaris Hostia with no trouble.

Actually loved the ritual part of religion...of the Catholic religion.

But when it came down to dogma...I ran into some problems.

Was gonna become a priest....and then discovered that women were much too important to my life. Best for me and the Church that I never went that direction.

The real test was reciting the "Suscipiat domine sacrificium,..." without slurring the words.

The best was "Et introibo altari Dei, ad Deum qui laetificat juventudem meam."

We had similar experiences, Frank. I just ended up a much nicer guy.

Setanta, of course makes us both look good.

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@georgeob1,

George...I am proud to say that I put lots and lots of work into my Latin pronunciation and enunciation...and I got compliments from every priest I ever served. And I actually had parishoners mention it to me. Back then...most parishioners attempted to follow the Latin using books during Mass. Had one person mention that when she heard the words "Confiteor Deo omnipotenti..." come from my lips, she knew I would continue clearly with all the words that followed...when most servers mumbled all the other words.

My memory is going quickly! But I still can do a lot of the Mass (Priest and Respondant) by memory.

I am an agnostic now...and rather forcefully anti-religion...but even thought I frequently berate it for its many failings, I still have regard for the Church. Can't deny that!

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@Frank Apisa,

Priest: Dominus vobiscum
Respondant: Et cum spiritu tuo

(this is fun)

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@georgeob1,

Quote:

We had similar experiences, Frank. I just ended up a much nicer guy.

Never underestimate the power of self-delusion.

Quote:

Setanta, of course makes us both look good.

I suppose one could argue that Jeffrey Dahmer made David Berkowitz look good . . .

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@wandeljw,

Quote:

Priest: Dominus vobiscum
Respondant: Et cum spiritum tuo

Just wanted to get that in quickly before George catches it.

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@Merry Andrew,

Merry Andrew wrote:

wandeljw wrote:
Priest: Dominus vobiscum
Respondant: Et cum spiritum tuo

Just wanted to get that in quickly before George catches it.

Actually, "spiritu" was correct.
As the object of the preposition "cum", it takes the ablative.
It is a fourth declension noun, so the ablative is "spiritu".

1 Reply

@wandeljw,

I always thought it was "domini abominani"! Wink

(Very interested in the lasped altar boy syndrome at A2K! Surprised

)

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@georgeob1,

georgeob1 wrote:

The real test was reciting the "Suscipiat domine sacrificium,..." without slurring the words.

That was the toughest one, for sure. Let's see if I can remember:

"Suscipiat dominum sacrificum et manibus tui, ad laudem et gloriam nominis sui, ad utilitatem qouque nostram tosciusque, ecclesie sue sancte, Amen."

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@msolga,

msolga wrote:

(Very interested in the lasped altar boy syndrome at A2K! )

This may be the reason that discussions become so heated on A2K. Whenever a group of former altar boys get together, their language becomes unsuitable for anything that would be "family oriented".

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@wandeljw,

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@George,

Mea maxima culpa . . .

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@Setanta,

Setanta wrote:

Benedict has called holocaust denial intolerable.

Quote:
(ANSA) - Vatican City, February 12 - Pope Benedict XVI on Thursday said Holocaust denial was ''unacceptable and intolerable'', his firmest personal condemnation yet in a row over the rehabilitation of a bishop who denies the Nazi extermination programme.

Meeting with the Conference of Presidents of Major Jewish Organisations, Benedict said the Holocaust was ''a crime against God and humanity'' and it was ''intolerable'' for anyone to deny it.

''How can we begin to understand the enormity of what happened in those terrible prisons? The whole of humanity feels deep shame for the savage brutality shown towards your people,'' said the German-born pope, recalling his 2006 trip to the Auschwitz concentration camp as a ''deeply moving experience."

I am back. While much is said against Holocaust Deniers, has much been said about Holocaust Trivializers? Since you advised me to go to a thread about Israel, you might find on those threads some posts that choose to trivialize Israel's existence as a direct result of the Holocaust.

Since so many of the original Displaced Persons that found themselves in the new state of Israel in 1948 were orphans, there was really no other place to put them. No other country wanted these people, let alone as orphans.

So, it was a humane effort to have Jews be able to give Jewish orphans a new life in Israel, often on the collective farms (kibbutzim). And, now, because of instransigent hatred towards the Jews being there, many westerners have decided to ignore the original purpose of Israel. In effect, trivialize the Holocaust. Now that is what I would like to hear the Vatican talk about - Holocaust Trivializers. That, in my opinion, is worse than Holocaust Deniers. Using a term that you have used in other threads, on other topics, this can be a Straw Man (Holocaust Denial).

And, by the way, on another thought posed on this thread, Latinos I have met that became Evangelicals, often, in my opinion, tend to be more goal oriented, than many of those Latinos that have stayed in the fold. Just my observation. Does Evangelicism amongst Latin Americans correlate to upward mobility?

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@msolga,

wasn't that juventutem?
" juventudem"

Signed,
one time latin student and almost-a-postulant

I liked the latin mass myself, but I'm not sure how much that actually had to do with real religion.

I still have some old gregorian chant tapes; atheist that I am, I'm also a sentimentalist.

(nods to Fb's comments)

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@wandeljw,

Oooh, that cuts to the quick...
and is probably correct.

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@Foofie,

Foofie wrote:

Does Evangelicism amongst Latin Americans correlate to upward mobility?

Not at all. As far as my experience goes, it correlates with alcoholism in the family.

Don't take me wrong. Christian communities are much better in fighting alcoholism... usually the wife is the first convert and pushes the husband towards "a new life".

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@Foofie,

Quote:

I am back. While much is said against Holocaust Deniers, has much been said about Holocaust Trivializers? Since you advised me to go to a thread about Israel, you might find on those threads some posts that choose to trivialize Israel's existence as a direct result of the Holocaust.

Since so many of the original Displaced Persons that found themselves in the new state of Israel in 1948 were orphans, there was really no other place to put them. No other country wanted these people, let alone as orphans.

So, it was a humane effort to have Jews be able to give Jewish orphans a new life in Israel, often on the collective farms (kibbutzim). And, now, because of instransigent hatred towards the Jews being there, many westerners have decided to ignore the original purpose of Israel. In effect, trivialize the Holocaust.

At very least...that is stretching the point considerable. That is at very least. Personally I see it as total, utter nonsense.

Quote:

Now that is what I would like to hear the Vatican talk about - Holocaust Trivializers. That, in my opinion, is worse than Holocaust Deniers. Using a term that you have used in other threads, on other topics, this can be a Straw Man (Holocaust Denial).

In other words you want to have “disagreement with Israel to equate with being worse than a holocaust denier!”

That is so self-serving and preposterous...I am amazed that it can come from someone with a straight face...assuming you had a straight face when you wrote it.

The sooner America gets out of the mindset that we have to back Israel no matter what...the better for America...the better for the world...and the better for Israel also.

1 Reply

@ossobuco,

Quote:

I still have some old gregorian chant tapes; atheist that I am, I'm also a sentimentalist.

Good music is good music, regardless of the provenance. If performed by virtuosos, or even by the merely competent with bravura, it is worth the listen, regardless of the content and the intent.

Giuseppe Verdi's Requiem and his Stabat Mater are arguably his two finest compositions. Bach's St. Matthew's Passion (the famousest one) is one of his most subtle and varied compositions.

Mozart's two greatest pieces of tragic music are from two rather disparate sources. His Requiem is well known, of course, and the Dies Irae of the Requiem is probably the most powerful piece of serious composition he ever wrote. Personally, i consider his Maurischer trauermusik (Masonic Funeral Music) to be an even greater composition, displaying both a powerful bravura and a great subtlety for such a short piece. Listening to the former doesn't make one a theist, and listening to the latter doesn't make one a Mason. Listening to either with appreciation makes one a devoté with a sophisticated discrimination in orchestral music, regardless of the provenance.

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@Frank Apisa,

The post you replied to was for Setanta to read. To be candid, I respect his intellect on the subject, even though he does not share with me the perceptions from my set of experiences. Kapish?

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@Setanta,

Set, that's certainly true, re music. No argument.

I'll add though that my attachment to gregorian chant is a fairly sentimental one.

1 Reply

RIGHT WING, REACTIONARY POPE?

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