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Old Testament--are its laws applicable to Christianity???

 
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sat 7 Feb, 2009 10:49 am
@ehBeth,
Ahhhh...so you have visited me twice to tell me you are ignoring me!

Interesting way to do that.

As for the laughter...you know me, Beth. Anything for a laugh.

Laughter is the most important part of my life.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sat 7 Feb, 2009 10:49 am
Or with the "naaaa" were you meaning you were not ignoring me?
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Sat 7 Feb, 2009 10:53 am
@Frank Apisa,
Why would I ignore you?
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sat 7 Feb, 2009 11:44 am
@ehBeth,
Why would anybody???? Drunk
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Sat 7 Feb, 2009 12:47 pm
@Frank Apisa,
I don't ignore you, Frank. Just haven't been on religion discussions lately. Seems the a2k religious posters mainly concern themselves with the evolution threads lately.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sat 7 Feb, 2009 01:08 pm
@edgarblythe,
Jeez, Edgar. I musta been away a long time. I didn't know you had become a Christian. Last person I woulda thought would make the fall! Wink
0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Sat 7 Feb, 2009 01:14 pm
There are no atheists in foxholes, Frank.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sat 7 Feb, 2009 01:27 pm
@edgarblythe,
I've always wondered about that!

I guess the atheists must be the ones doing the charging!
0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Sat 7 Feb, 2009 01:34 pm
I can't speak for the rest of us, but I joined the Navy for the express purpose of avoiding a foxhole.
0 Replies
 
Intrepid
 
  1  
Reply Sat 7 Feb, 2009 03:15 pm
@ehBeth,
ehBeth wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
Not a lot of Christians around A2K these days!


or they are ignoring you in all your crusty wonder


Frank who? Laughing
Frank Apisa
 
  2  
Reply Sat 7 Feb, 2009 08:05 pm
@Intrepid,
Quote:
Frank who? Laughing


Finally! A live one!
Intrepid
 
  1  
Reply Sat 7 Feb, 2009 09:46 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:

Quote:
Frank who? Laughing


Finally! A live one!


Hi Frank. I won't get into a long debate or anything. I just want to post a couple thoughts.

First, the Old Testament Law was given to the nation of Israel, not to Christians. You may take issue with this, but it is a fact.

Some of those laws were to advise the Israelites on how to obey and please God. The Ten Commandments for example. Some of the laws were to show the Israelites how to worship God and atone for sin. Some of the laws were intended to make the Israelites distinct from other nations. The laws about food and clothing, for example.

The Old Testament law really doesn't apply to us today. When Jesus died on the cross, He put an end to the Old Testament law.

Ephesians 2:15 says "having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments cntained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace."

Romans 10:4 reads "For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

Galatians 3:23-25 tells us "But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed.
Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor."



In place of the Old Testament law, we now come under the law of Christ, which is to, “Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind … and to love your neighbor as yourself”

If we obey those two commands, we will be fulfilling all that Christ requires of us.

This stuff could be debated forever. The bottom line is that if one lives by the new law then everything should be wonderful. We both know, however, that this is not the case.

We can only do our best and hope, in the end, that it is good enough. I think that this last line applies to Christians, athiests and agnostics alike.

Frank Apisa
 
  2  
Reply Sun 8 Feb, 2009 08:06 am
@Intrepid,
Intepid...sorry you don't want to get into a long debate...but that is your choice.

I will comment on some of the things you said, though. Gotta take advantage of a "live one" when one comes your way, ya know. Wink

Quote:
First, the Old Testament Law was given to the nation of Israel, not to Christians. You may take issue with this, but it is a fact.


I don't take issue with that at all. There were no Christians when the laws were given. This thread is not about to whom they were given...it is about to whom they apply.

Quote:

The Old Testament law really doesn't apply to us today. When Jesus died on the cross, He put an end to the Old Testament law.

Ephesians 2:15 says "having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments cntained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace."

Romans 10:4 reads "For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

Galatians 3:23-25 tells us "But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed.
Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor."


It is interesting that the three quotes you offered here are all from Paul. The quote I offered (in the text) is from Jesus...and Jesus says the laws do apply.

Makes one wonder if you are defending Christianity or some religion that should be call Paulianity.

Jesus said he did not come to change the law. If you read what I wrote up above...it appears Paul was especially concerned with changing the parts of the law dealing with circumcision and dietary restrictions...rather than the entire of the law.

And even if the argument is that “the law” does not apply...the fact remains that the Old Testament not only give us "the law"...it also tells us what pleases and offends the god. Remember...the god we are talking about is THE GOD JESUS WORSHIPED. And even if you want to pervert what Jesus said about the law...and accept what you think Paul said about the law...what the Old Testament tells us about what pleases and offends THE GOD JESUS WORSHIPED does not change.

So...the fact that the god of the Bible is offended greatly by homosexual conduct...still stands. The fact that the god of the Bible says that slavery is moral...still stands. The fact that the god of the Bible feels that people who are blind or who have limps or diseases profane holy places by their presence...still stands.

Right???

Quote:
...we now come under the law of Christ, which is to, “Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind … and to love your neighbor as yourself”

If we obey those two commands, we will be fulfilling all that Christ requires of us.


According to Paul. BUT NOT ACCORDING TO JESUS. With all the respect in the world, Intrepid, why do Christians constantly put the word of Paul ahead of the word of Jesus?

Quote:
This stuff could be debated forever. The bottom line is that if one lives by the new law then everything should be wonderful. We both know, however, that this is not the case.


I have often articulated the notion that if everyone lived their life in accordance with the majority of the teachings of Jesus...the world would be a much, much better place...a Heaven, in fact! I'm not much into his “love God” nonsense...but the rest of his teachings, like the teachings of many enlightened humans, are right on the mark.


Quote:
We can only do our best and hope, in the end, that it is good enough. I think that this last line applies to Christians, atheists and agnostics alike.


On that, we can agree. And if we can have some fun arguing about interesting things like the issue being discussed here...so much the better.

Correct?

Intrepid
 
  2  
Reply Fri 13 Feb, 2009 07:43 am
@Frank Apisa,
Correct. We do agree on some things. Smile

We will not change each others minds on what we do not agree, but that is not my intention anyhow. Actually, you have caused me to look at some things differently. Just not on religion.

Cheers.
0 Replies
 
TexazEric
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Jun, 2009 03:15 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Probably because I've seen no intelligent discussion. Only insults and bashing.. That type of attitude isn't worth our time. We as Christians are ordered to give an answer to every man the reason for the faith within us. We are also told not to cast our pearls before swine. So those who are truly seeking answers and desire to engage in meaningful respectful discussion we will be inclined to discuss with.. Those who just wish to bash and name call are just not worth our time. Their minds are set and have no desire for respectful debate.
0 Replies
 
TexazEric
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Jun, 2009 04:07 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Okay, When I got to the second page I found some intelligent discussion. Maybe Ill give my two cents worth. I agree with what Intrepid said but I have some to add as well.

Basically the Jews created laws out of 10 simple commandments. Basically if you follow the 1st commandment everything else falls in line.

I would say that the law was divided into Ceremonial law and moral law.

The ceremonial law was done away with, though its original purposes and its design in revealing the attributes of God to us are still valuable in our understanding of the nature of God.
As for the moral law, As we see in the Ten Commandments Jesus actually expanded them. As Intrepid pointed out Jesus said Mth 5:17 " Do not think that I came to destroy the law or the Prophets , I did not come to destroy but to FULFILL. For assuredly, I say to you till heaven and earth pass away, on jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is FULFILLED. .... For I say to you , that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the Pharisees, yo will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.
continuing.
You have heard that it was said of old, " You shall not murder".... but I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment... vs 27... You have heard that it was said to hose of old " You shall not commit adultery. But I way to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

Basically what I see here is that Jesus has revealed the truth of the law to mankind. The Pharisees were the "holier than thous" of that time. Proud of their "righteousness" For Jesus to say that one must surpass that level of righteousness showed how futile mans righteousness is... Is 64:6 But we are all like an unclean thing. And all our righteousness's are like filthy rags...

Jesus has revealed basically an impossible righteousness. That every thought of sin is now equal to sin. A simple look is sin. Anger or hate without cause is sin.. This is an impossible standard.

This is because Jesus fulfilled the law. Jesus became the righteousness the law required because he is the only one ever in history to be perfect and live the law perfectly and without sin.

Heb ch7 deals with Christs righteousness.
7:12 For the priesthood being changed of necessity there is also a change of the law. .... vs 16 ... who has come , not according to the law of a fleshly commandment, but according to the power of an endless life... vs 18 For on the one hand there is an annulling of the former commandment because of its weakness and unprofitableness, for the law made nothing perfect, on the other hand, there is the bringing in of a better hope, through which we draw near to God..
So the law was not profitable to perfection.. Jesus as the fulfillment of the law became that perfection on our behalf.
So basically here is how it plays out The acceptance of Christ in our lives IMPUTES HIS Righteousness into us. This is what perfects us in God's eyes. When He sees us He sees the righteous blood of His Son. We are not justified by our own work but the finished work of Christ.

Does this mean we cannot learn anything from the moral law.. Absolutely not... The Law was given to define sin. When Jesus came he clearly explained that the letter of the law barely scraped the surface of the actual righteousness required to be sinless against a Holy God. This reveals just how Holy our God is and how unrighteous we are as humans. Only through Christ can we be righteous for He was the only law keeper.

So the moral law is still important and should be followed to the best of our ability, but it will not make us righteous because our righteousness is in Christ alone, and our following of the commandments of God simply show our love for God and our desire to worship him in spirit and in truth.

I hope that sheds light on my point of view...
revel
 
  1  
Reply Mon 4 Jan, 2010 07:39 am
@TexazEric,
The above is how I would have answered had I been able to form such a clear coherent reply, in other words, I agree.

Hebrews is about the best to place to go to answer the question in the title, that is if one actually does want an answer to it. Moreover, no one is sure who wrote Hebrews for the Paul haters. (not that fond of him myself being a woman and apparently he was even hard to understand by Peter as he writes in his book)
0 Replies
 
Philis
 
  1  
Reply Mon 1 Feb, 2010 02:02 am
The Law of Torah was the legal system, set up to show where man trangresses. It has become a curse because there is no redemption, following the law brings you no closer to God and a yearly sacrifice had to still be made to atone for transgressions. The righteous now live by faith and the law is not faith. Christ was the sacrifice and by faith the righteous are forgiven of their transgressions. The law was and is our tutor to bring us unto Christ, but the law does not clearly define all our transgressions. Human transgression goes a lot deeper than the law can reveal. The OT law applies to anyone who does not come to faith in Christ. So for the unfaitful the law still applies. The law does not require faith. No man is justified by the law before God that is why a yearly sacrifice had to be made in the temple.
The NT showing the righteousness of man through faith in Christ is as Christ said , the most important laws are love the lord your God with all your mind, all your heart and all your soul and to love your neighbor as yourself. These 2 laws are the most important and they are the fullness of the OT laws.
First we were tutored in the law and now the Holy Spirit sent by Christ to man convicts us when we transgress against God or against our neighbor.
But,
the righteous are no longer slaves to the law for they are made righteous through their faith in Christ.
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Schrodey
 
  2  
Reply Thu 17 Mar, 2011 10:17 pm
Very simple ... after the Old Testament ended, God started taking Prozac, and became a little less jealous and bloodthirsty. But some days he forgets to take his meds, and goes back to being the arbitrary and cruel Old Testament deity (which explains most of Revelation).
0 Replies
 
geralduk
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Jun, 2011 11:30 am
@Frank Apisa,
I would have thought that the fullest biblical 'arguement' for matetrs concerning the law and the church and therefore every believer was and can be found in the Epistles.But in John 8 is a practical answer to the question both to the believer and unbeliever.
In that under the law the woman was guilty and thus by the law was under a sentence of death needing only the word of the judge to pass the judgement.
Her accusers on the other hand who sought to be justfied by the law and thus be bale to accuse Jesus used the law as it suited them.For according to the law both the man and the woman were to be stoned to death.But thier motive was not the upholding of the law but rather the snaring of Jesus.
Thus in presenting the Lord with seemingly an impossible thing they hoped to snare him in his own words one way or the other.
Yet He beign the master in every situation bent down and wrote in the ground with his finger as if he did not hear them.
Soem say he wrote out varios sins commited by the accusers .This cannot be true as it si the devil who is the accuser of his bretheren.His finger wrote in the dust of the earth,the ground.There are only 5 times im aware of where the finger of God is mentioned.
1) In exodus where the Egyptian wizards and magicians having been able to duplicate the works of God up to a certain point when God went alittle further.They were forced to admit "this is the finger of God........"
2) It was the finger of God that wrote the law of the ten commandments on the two tablets of stone.
3)It was the finger in the likeness of a mans hand that wrote out Belthazars judgement on the plaster wall.
4)If I by the finger of God said Jesus cast out devils no ye this that the kingdom God has come night unto you.
5)The woman caught in adultery.
Thus it is was always judgement and the law in all 5 cases.
So what was Jesus doing?
First he was writing in the dust.
"If God should mark iniquity who would stand?"
No matter how deep the dust its still dust.
He knows our frame it is but dust.
His judgement concerning man then is absolute and who can say nay to the judgement of God?For while man says in his 'bill of human rights' man has the right to life.
God still says the soul that sinneth it shall die.
He was also giving all time .A measure of time. Even then as now.
To consider your ways as they also.
To reflect upon what had brough them to this point and why.
and thus he gave time to the accused and the accusers to repent.
For by the LAW all have sinned and come short of the glory of God.
With no exception.
If you look at it from the point of veiw of the accusers it is profitable to do so.
It is worth comparign them with Joseph "who being a JUST man ........"when he found out Maries aparant sin sought to send her away privately.
If you look at it from the accused point of veiw that too is profitable.
For what knoweth the things of man save the spirit that is in man"
But it is worth reminding ourselves that that when the man she was caught with was set free she could have been with some justyfication been rightously angry and indigmant.All the same she also was condemned under the law and thus her heated rightousness was but filthy rags.
By the time she came to be stood in the midst and in front of Jesus she was as good as dead with no hope at all.
Yet when Jesus said nothing it gave her a ray of hope.and a time of grace where by she could consider her ways and repent.
If you compare her actions unseen with the theif on the cross that was seen it too is profitable.
For in the beggining both thiefs mocked Christ but as time passed thinsg were done and said .One of the theifs took the time God gave him to reflect on his ways and what had brought him to that place.So whwen the other theif began to mock the Lord again the other thief rebuked him and said"do you not fear od?"it is the fear of God that is the begining of wisdom and the fleeing from evil understanding"Not only then did he confess his sin he also copnfessed the rightousness of Christ and then turned the LORD in faith for his salvation.
But the accusers seekignto be justyfied by the law pressed the Lord for an answer .Till finally the Lords stood up and uttered what the Law said. "Let the accusers cast the first stone" We read in Romans that the Law is not to make one rightous or perefect but to convict of sin.Thus they who sought to be justyfied by the law He answered them according to the Law and thus; albeit he accused no one ;each was convicted in their own hearts thier own sin and each went away.
The woman on the othe rhand who sought but the mercy of God and had repented not only found mercy but also the Word of grace.
All controversies in the church today are resolved in Christ.
The trouble is that Jesus is outside the door of the church and knocks.Yet the church thinks He is inside the church.(not according to the scriptures he is not.
For there is too much of the world and self justyfication for Him to be able to .
Thus he knocks on the door of THE church .Which is a call to repentance to the whole church.
The promise is to the individual who has ears to hear and opens the door.

In Christ
Gerald
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