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How much of Christianity is based on Paganism?

 
 
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Apr, 2009 07:48 am
@nadia 1,
nadia 1 wrote:
christianity have pagan DNA Whot we see in christian movement and messianic jews movement is manifestation of baal,baalzebub I t is not the spirit of true god of Abraham and Israel

Right. I should have known.
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Apr, 2009 08:51 am
Sometimes the connections are pretty close, as in the Basilica di San Clemente in Rome - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basilica_di_San_Clemente;

similar situation with Santa Maria de Sopra Minerva, near the Pantheon -
sopra Minerva meaning over the temple to Minerva.. which was a mistake, since the temple the church was built over was to Isis -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santa_Maria_sopra_Minerva

which brings up the Pantheon (my and many other peoples' favorite building)- temple to roman gods built under Hadrian (after a start by Agrippa) and later adapted as a catholic church.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pantheon,_Rome
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Apr, 2009 08:54 am
@ossobuco,
ossobuco wrote:
Sometimes the connections are pretty close

A lot of connections seem a lot more than "pretty close". They seem virtually identical.
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Apr, 2009 09:00 am
@rosborne979,
I'm not arguing with ya.
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Apr, 2009 01:29 pm
Christianity was born, developed, and spread in the heart of the Roman Empire, and all the converts were people from that era. To think that the language, customs, architecture, traditions, etc. of the peoples of the Roman Empire at that time would not have been adopted and reflected in Christian language, customs, architecture, traditions etc. would fly in the face of all we know of human nature.

I live in a state that borders with Mexico and has a highly visible Native American culture and I have adopted much of the language, appreciation for architecture, customs, traditions, music, cuisine, etc. that originated in Mexico and/or that Native American culture. Does that mean I am Mexican or Native American or that I am no different from those who live in or are from Mexico or the Indian nations? No. I am my own person with some entirely unique experiences and thought processes who just happens to enjoy and feel comfortable in a simulated or quasi-Mexican/Native American culture.

Because there are similarities between Christian art, cultures, traditions, rituals, etc. etc. etc. and that of the Pagan culture from which Christianity emerged is neither remarkable nor particularly telling. It would be highly unusual if there were no parallels or similarities in fact just as there are parallels and similarities with the Jewish traditions from which Christianity also emerged. In fact much of Christianity is based on the traditions and beliefs of Judaism much more so than you can say that much of Christianity is based on pagan beliefs.
Diest TKO
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Apr, 2009 01:42 pm
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:

Christianity was born, developed, and spread in the heart of the Roman Empire, and all the converts were people from that era. To think that the language, customs, architecture, traditions, etc. of the peoples of the Roman Empire at that time would not have been adopted and reflected in Christian language, customs, architecture, traditions etc. would fly in the face of all we know of human nature.

Rome was a the heart of the Roman Empire. Christianity had to travel west to Rome (It traveled East too). The adoption of any cultural element might have more to do with imperialism than anything else. Mind you, Christianity spent a lot of time being practiced in languages prior to Latin.

Foxfyre wrote:

I live in a state that borders with Mexico and has a highly visible Native American culture and I have adopted much of the language, appreciation for architecture, customs, traditions, music, cuisine, etc. that originated in Mexico and/or that Native American culture. Does that mean I am Mexican or Native American or that I am no different from those who live in or are from Mexico or the Indian nations? No. I am my own person with some entirely unique experiences and thought processes who just happens to enjoy and feel comfortable in a simulated or quasi-Mexican/Native American culture.

No it doesn't mean you are Mexican or Native American. However if you were to practice those traditions and then refuse to credit them as Mexican or Native American there would be a problem. This speaks to the main point directly.

Foxfyre wrote:

Because there are similarities between Christian art, cultures, traditions, rituals, etc. etc. etc. and that of the Pagan culture from which Christianity emerged is neither remarkable nor particularly telling. It would be highly unusual if there were no parallels or similarities in fact just as there are parallels and similarities with the Jewish traditions from which Christianity also emerged. In fact much of Christianity is based on the traditions and beliefs of Judaism much more so than you can say that much of Christianity is based on pagan beliefs.

So if Christians practice elements of the old pagan tradition, those elements are no longer a part of the pagan tradition, but the Christian one?

T
K
O
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Apr, 2009 01:54 pm
@Diest TKO,
When you take the time to explain the origin of every word of your language, any cultural influence on your food preferences, clothing, choice of furniture, music appreciation, etc. rather than just accept that you are a product of your environment, experience, as well as being uniquely your own person, then you can require that of Christianity. In other words, it would be ridiculous for you to have to acknowledge such every time you speak about anything related to yourself.

I don't think the vast majority of Christians have ever denied the cultural influences that have been incorporated into Christian language, customs, and rituals. I know that as a Chrisitian teacher, I actively teach such.

But to have to acknowledge these every time the subject comes up would be ridiculous. As would it be ridiculous for me to explain that the architecture of my house has a Mexican/Spanish influence every time I refer to my house which is not Mexican/Spanish but was morphed into an architectural style that has become its own thing common to this area.

The things which we enjoy, appreciate, are comfortable with can encompass a great deal of the world's culture just as many of the customs/traditions of the pagan world of the Roman Empire predated the Roman Empire. There simply isn't time to footnote everything each time we talk about it.

That you share similarities with other people and demonstrate traits that result from your experience and heritage does not change the fact that you are your own person. That Christianity shares similarities or shows influence of past cultures does not change the fact that Christianity is its own thing.
Diest TKO
 
  3  
Reply Thu 30 Apr, 2009 06:15 pm
@Foxfyre,
That's not how honesty works Fox.

I don't expect you to explain the architecture of your home re: spain or mexico. I do expect if I ask, that you answer honestly though.

So if parts of Christianity including the traditions surrounding Christmas have pagan roots, and I ask if they do, and you say NO, that's akin to you lying when asked about your home and saying that the design is your own creation.

T
K
O
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Apr, 2009 06:42 pm
@Diest TKO,
My home isn't, but it just as easily could have been my design and creation. The fact that my design was influenced by my familiarity with or appreciation for other styles would not suggest that my design was not its own thing nor would it be the same thing as saying that the style has its ROOTS in something else. If I intentionally designed a home in traditional gothic, baroque, or Beaux style, it still would not be ROOTED in something else but the style would be intentional.

ROOTED in suggests something is coming out of something else or originated with something else.

Saying that Christian language, traditions, rituals, art, architecture, etc. shows influence from certain cultures is not the same thing as saying that Christianity is ROOTED in those other cultures. However, without the prophecy and traditions of Judaism, there would be no Christianity. I think it is fair, therefore, to say that Christianity is ROOTED in Judaism but not in paganism.


rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Apr, 2009 06:55 pm
@ossobuco,
ossobuco wrote:

I'm not arguing with ya.

Me either. Just expanding the point. Smile
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Apr, 2009 06:58 pm
@rosborne979,
Si, si.
0 Replies
 
rosborne979
 
  2  
Reply Thu 30 Apr, 2009 07:25 pm
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:
I think it is fair, therefore, to say that Christianity is ROOTED in Judaism but not in paganism.

And yet the story of Jesus from birth to resurrection and all the trappings along the way is completely derived from (copied from) several much older stories all leading back to the original pagan stories.

You can fiddle with the word ROOTED all you want and insert intermediate steps here and there, but it doesn't change the fact that a large portion of the basis for Christianity (the resurrection of Jesus) comes ultimately from original Pagan stories.
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Apr, 2009 11:54 pm
@rosborne979,
Well I won't try to convince you differently because as a non-Christian you cannot know what I know that isn't in any history books or anywhere on the internet. You have made it clear that you believe and want to beieve the very limited internet theories that are stretched and manipulated to make ancient pagan myths look more like Christian myths as if that settles the matter. I don't fault you for believing that Christianity is nothing but an adaption of Pagan myths--it is a common dogma among non-Christians--but I know that it isn't.

It is important to separate the reality of the faith from the Christian rituals, rites, legends, myths, customs, traditions, and manmade dogma, doctrine, and theory that has developed over more than 2000 years. Once you strip away all the stuff that humankind has added and take it down to be bare basics--what C.S. Lewis described as 'Mere Christianity"--you are still stuck with Judaism, but the Pagans simply don't factor into it other than via the Hellenistic influence that helped at least some of the Jews to be sufficiently intellectually liberated to be able to accept Jesus for who he was.

Christianity is not rooted in Paganism and is not based on Paganism.
Setanta
 
  5  
Reply Fri 1 May, 2009 06:19 am
@Foxfyre,
Quote:
. . . what I know that isn't in any history books or anywhere on the internet


This is an honesty which i'm sure Fox did not intend. This pretty well describes all of the bullshit which she peddles which passes for history at her house.

Quote:
You have made it clear that you believe and want to beieve . . .


Irony is not dead . . . it just goes unheralded.
rosborne979
 
  3  
Reply Fri 1 May, 2009 08:54 am
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:
Christianity is not rooted in Paganism and is not based on Paganism.

That statement flies completely in the face of all the historic evidence available. But you're entitled to your opinion. Smile
0 Replies
 
rosborne979
 
  2  
Reply Fri 1 May, 2009 08:57 am
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:

Quote:
. . . what I know that isn't in any history books or anywhere on the internet


This is an honesty which i'm sure Fox did not intend. This pretty well describes all of the bullshit which she peddles which passes for history at her house.

I know Smile That was great, wasn't it.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  0  
Reply Fri 1 May, 2009 09:03 am
Okay guys. I thought maybe there was interest in a discussion. I see there is not. You both have a great day though.
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Fri 1 May, 2009 09:05 am
I'm absolutely confident that Foxfyre is not a pagan, I'm pretty sure she resides in the suburbs of albuquerque nowhere near the rustic countryside.
rosborne979
 
  2  
Reply Fri 1 May, 2009 09:17 am
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:
Okay guys. I thought maybe there was interest in a discussion. I see there is not. You both have a great day though.

You too. You're a real trip Foxy Smile
0 Replies
 
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Fri 1 May, 2009 09:18 am
@dyslexia,
dyslexia wrote:
I'm absolutely confident that Foxfyre is not a pagan, I'm pretty sure she resides in the suburbs of albuquerque nowhere near the rustic countryside.

Even if she's not in the countryside, her ROOTS might extend in that direction. After all, she does have the cute little owl picture Smile
0 Replies
 
 

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