@hawkeye10,
Quote:The Wycliff Bible, late into the Christan era as it was, that is your argument that books the size of the bible could have been reproduced for the masses? Nope, that argument is false, that bible was very expensive.
Once again, you indulge a straw man. I never made such an argument--i said nothing about books of any size being reproduced "for the masses."
I realize that your understanding of these matters is so feeble, and your ignorance about everything in the high middle ages so profound that resorting to an attempt to characterize me as having made an argument you are prepared to address (especially in your inimitable "i ain't go no evidence, but just take my word that i know all about it" style) is about your only hope. But i won't play--you have erected a straw man, because i never articulated such an argument.
You also betray a profound ignorance of the economic systems of Europe in the high middle ages. Specie was extremely scarce--people usually
did not engage in cash transactions. Almost every transaction was a barter transaction, or an in kind payment. People paid their rents in kind, people frequently aid taxes in kind. Commoners who were bound to the land paid in labor--so many days per year. The charters which established manor houses, which described fiefs specifically outline just how much will be paid, on what schedule, and in terms of so many querns of this or that type of grain, so many head of livestock, so many fowl and of what type, so many eggs . . . people just didn't deal in cash. In Wycliffe's day, the silver penny was the most common coin in circulation--and to make change, people cut them in half to make two ha'pennies (half-pennies) and cut the halves in half to make farthings (quarter pennies)--coins were hard to come by, and people rarely used them.
For you to say that the Wycliffe book was "expensive" is an absurdity. To speak of the expense of any book is meaningless. Books were produced in abbeys, sometimes on commission, but usually as gifts to wealthy patrons for grants of lands, manors, rents or livings which had been made by those patrons. Often books were produced in a scriptorium for the greater glory of the ecclesiastic establishment of which they were a part. Books on secular subjects, rather rare compared to religious works, might be produced on commission, but as often as not, a noble would send over a text to be copied, along with a few head of livestock, or so many querns of grain, and the quality of the finished product would be a reflection of the valuation of the gift. In short, people didn't walk around with cash in their pockets, and people didn't go out to buy books.
The Wycliffe bibles, in fact, were given away. Paripatetic dissenting priests, known as Lollards, would roam the English countryside, reading from the English text to the commoners, and if they found a literate commoner whom they trusted, they simply gave him a copy of the translation to help in further disseminating the "good word."
You really know absolutely nothing about this time period, and the nature of the ecclesiastic hierarchy and its relationship to the aristocracy, the commons and the serfs. You constantly display your ignorance and just dig your hole deeper with every post. You're so incensed at me, that you are inventing argument which i have never advanced, in order to at least create an appearance of holding your own--but the debate is imaginary, as i simply haven't said the things you allege against me.
Quote:I am not however willing to condom the Church for choosing tradition of the Mass over the public reading of the Bible.
Well, suit yourself . . . but my advice is, if you ever do f*ck the church that you'd be well advised to wear a rubber . . . you never know who those boys have been puttin' it to . . .