Our minds control us...

I just think in order to be "truly free", we must be distinct from our bodies at least, and our thoughts as well, otherwise we are not our own puppets, if you know what I mean.

I know you believe that you live apart from your emotions. You have somehow learned to seperate yourself from them. I can understand it though I am not on board with it necessarily. That is if I am understanding you correctly. How, though, can you be distinctive - from your own body or thoughts? Since the mind is in fact part of the body. It can only survive if the body survives.

A typical person, as Izzie pointed out can control thoughts, desires and actions if strong enough in will. There are those who feel they cannot overcome their desire to eat, to commit crimes (whether sexual as in child molestation or murder), that does not mean they cannot. I understand, though I did not think of it in my previous post, that there are those who do not have the ability to reason well because of circumstances beyond their control, whether it be autism, bi-polar disorder, and I am sure many other things that I am not thinking of now. But they are not the ones I am talking of. I am referring to your average person.

I know that I am not truly free nor will I ever be while on this earth. I am bound by law, by emotional ties of family, by common consideration of the person next to me wherever I may be, and by my own moral choices - whatever they may be. So in this I must agree...I will probably never be free until I am free of this body - which would be in death. Is that what you are meaning?

If we are distinct from our bodies, and our thoughts, then who, or what, are we?

The "mind", or conscious self, is a function of the brain. The brain is part of the body. We do not exist without our bodies.

This definition of "truly free" sounds like death--death frees us from both the body and our thoughts.

And then there are those who claim they have had near death "out of body experiences." They claim they saw themselves lying on the bed.

Here's my final contribution on this topic; our minds are made up from our genes, nurture, and environment.

I can imagine what I would look like lying on the bed. I am not so sure of this one. I suppose it is possible - but it is when they are having "near death" experiences. When it comes to it and they didn't die - well...their mind is right back in that prison we call the body.

In dreams one can sometimes see oneself from outside one's body too--but you are still very much alive and inside your body while you are sleeping.

We can exercise a lot of volutional control over our instincts--not complete control, by any means, but a fairly decent amount of control. The same is true of our emotions and thoughts--we can gain a fair amount of control over those too.

I don't think we should toss the notion of individual responsibility out of the window and start attributing our actions, reactions, emotions, and attitudes to things allegedly beyond our control. We can learn to control those things--and we can learn to do so without popping pills to alter every undesirable emotional state or wayward impulse.

With the exception of those who suffer from severe psychiatric, neurological, and developmental disabilities, most people are quite capable of learning to exercise control over how they think, feel, and act in their everyday lives. Whether they choose to recognize that fact, and take charge of themselves, doesn't change the fact that they have this basic ability and this option.

Some people would rather think they are the helpless pawns of their body's bio-chemistry or their environment or even of fate. They victimize themselves by this view, although they make the manufacturers of pharmaceuticals quite happy and wealthy. Of course, if you realize that you are not helpless or powerless to control how you act, think, and feel, then it becomes difficult to ascribe blame elsewhere, and you are faced with having to take self responsibility. For some, that may be the toughest pill to swallow, although it's the only one that brings a real sense of liberation. Self responsibility is liberating. Freedom lies in choice--recognizing choices and making them--choices about how you want to act, react, think, and feel.

On board with everything you said firefly.

Firefly wrote:
“Some people would rather think they are the helpless pawns of their body's bio-chemistry or their environment or even of fate. They victimize themselves by this view”

Absolutely Right, I know people who think like this. If I was trying to help someone who felt powerless and was maybe depressed, I would stress that they have a “choice”; they can choose how to think about whatever, rather than resign to their sad state of mind. Conversely, when arguing about the nature of choice, I do not believe that we can “choose” in the common sense...sense. Choice is not that simple, however I would not bring my view on choice into a talk I am having with someone I am trying to help, I would not tell him or her that I think choice is an illusion, “but you still have a choice”. That would not help a person with depression; that would inflate their misery, a lot.

This seems contradictory, how I stress choice and yet do not really believe it; but the key thing is the idea itself. If you believe you have a choice, then you feel as though you are in “control”, however if you tell yourself that you are powerless to do anything about anything, then you do not feel in control. Like you said it is a self-victimisation, I call them “voluntary victims”, on account of the fact that I would tell them that they have a “choice”.

Existentially speaking, I would stress the individuals power to choose, however when it comes to the actual nature of choice and choosing, it is a different matter for me.

I think most humans have experienced depression, because the chemistry in our brains can't be "controlled." It's how we handle it is of most import.

I think very little of why we experience depression has to do with changes in our brain chemistry. After a person has been depressed for a period of time, there may then be some changes in brain chemistry or brain activity, but that doesn't mean that these changes were present in the first place, and actually caused the depression.

Excluding those who suffer from true Bipolar Disorder (which is often misdiagnosed and over diagnosed), schizoaffective disorder, post-partum depression, PMS mood changes, post-stroke depression, and possibly some true seasonal affective disorders, most people who become depressed do so in reaction to some event in their lives, and not because of any underlying organic or biochemical factors. Most people who are depressed are depressed about something in particular or some general dissatisfaction with something in their lives. The notion that all depression has a biochemical basis is a myth perpetrated by the pharmaceutical industry and current day psychiatrists, because they have a deeply vested financial commitment to this viewpoint.

All unhappiness and sadness is not clinical depression. We all experience some feelings of sadness and unhappiness from time to time. And most depression is not biochemical, and it cannot be successfully treated by drugs--certainly not by drugs alone. If a loved one dies, if your husband walks out on you for a younger woman, if you lose your job, if you have serious health problems, if your relationships are unsatisfying and unfulfilling, if you feel bored and useless in your retirement years, if you have trouble paying your bills, if you are going through divorce or custody battles, if you are drinking too much, if you are isolated and lonely, etc, etc,. and a whole host of other factors as well, there is no drug under the sun that is going to make you feel much happier about your life. The basis for these problems, and the depressed mood, is not biochemical.

With the exception of the relatively few conditions that appear to suggest an organic cause for depression, most people who are basically very happy with their lives and their lot in life, do not suddenly become depressed out of nowhere, with absolutely no percipitating cause. Most depression is a reaction to something--that "something" must be directly addressed in some way in order to alleiviate the depression.

Certainly, if one has significantly depressed mood for an extended period, biochemical changes might occur, all sorts of physiological changes might occur, but this does mean they were the causative factors of the initial mood change, nor does it mean that drugs are now essentially needed to reverse these changes--they may well resolve of their own accord, even if the person does nothing at all.

So, while I don't agree with cicerone imposter that:



I definitely agree with this thought.



We have a lot more control over how we feel than most people realize.

I was not really talking about depression, I was talking about the concept "choice" and how it can be used to aid people, regardless of whether I believe it to be true or not.

My opinion was based solely on personal experience; I'm usually pretty happy with my life, and I will have a mood change without knowing what precipitated it. Without any answer to its cause, I presumed it was related to chemistry in the brain.

do not loose my point in the example I gave.

I haven't; I also agree that we can control, to some degree, those mood changes by "doing other things, and thinking good thoughts." Listening to music one enjoys is one, and also thinking positive thoughts can help to shorten the mood from bad to good. Also, doing physical activity one enjoys is another option.

in a sense one cannot just think themslves out of a bad mood, they have to do things that make them feel better as well.

Is there a reason
that u draw a distinction
between our minds and " us " ?





David

Mood swings can result from a) fatigue or the body's reaction to various substances; b) chemical activity within the brain; c) old tapes running in our memory that re-create old emotions and sensory impressions. (Response to a certain song on the radio, etc.) We have little control over what mood overtakes us, but we can intentionally choose not to react to our mood which takes it out of the instinct category. And, through force of will, we can generally alter our mood if we wish to do so. (A person suffering from chronic depression may not be able to do so, but that is due to a medical condition rather than anything intentional going on in the brain.)

Secondly, Carl Jung and his disciples who have followed and studied the phenomenon have come to believe that each of us have certain characteristics that are hardwired into our feelings and thought processes from birth and these hold true regardless of any experiences or conditioning that we may encounter through life.

And there is instinct built into us--the unsolicited impulses that causes us to be afraid when we should be, to fight when we must, to seek comfort, food, shelter as appropriate, etc.

Human beings are the most complex creatures on Earth and we should not sell short our built in intelligence, capabilities, possibilities, etc. that cannot be confined to pure instinct, while acknowledging that we all have instincts that allow us to survive.

I think freedom can be cultivated, through cultivating an awareness of how one thinks, through becoming increasingly aware of one's own thought processes.

This is based on the principle that "thought processes determine behaviour".

When a person reacts to a situation, with anger, or sadness etc, there is a preceding thought, an interpretation of that situation, which causes them to react in a particular way. people can become caught up in cycles of behaviour, and become unable to change, because they are almost unaware that there is a preceding thought, which compelled them to react at all.

In this way it can be said that such people are not free of their own thought processes, because they lack an awareness of their own thoughts. Through reflecting on one's thoughts processes, and by identifying the element of interpretation, and how certain interpretations can cause one to feel a particular way about something, they can then change their behaviour.

This is acknowledged in treatment programmes for offending behaviour, particularly violent offenders. Such people have "cognitive skills deficits", which lead to maladaptive thinking, and consequently maladaptive behaviour.

the way we think does influence the way we behave, and particularly our interpretations of our experiences effect how we feel about them, which also effects our responses.

we have a "freedom to attitude" (Frankl), but some people are simply unaware of this.