Our minds control us...

@existential potential,

The reason I do not think we are our mind's master is from observing too many human behavior that is instinctive or in-grown such as gays and lesbians, people who eat too much or too little, smoke, drink, take drugs, commit crime, incest, and so many things that seems beyond our control.

However, I agree with much of what firefly has written on this subject.

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@existential potential,

existential potential, I still find what you are saying very unclear

Quote:

our interpretations are determined by early instinctive reactions to experiences

Define "instinctive reactions", giving an example if you can. I really don't know what you mean, and whether it it is the same or different from the way I am using "instinct".

And, you said

Quote:

it is not experience itself which determines anything

But isn't "experience" the sum of our learning--which is what underlies our interpretations of events?

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@Izzie,

Izzie wrote:
“I think neurotypically we are “free thinkers” " tho with mental health disorders, the brain in my opinion, is wired differently and some behaviour cannot be controlled until the person is taught to control it by altering their behaviour.”

That seems strange; so behavior cannot be controlled until one changes their behavior; when we think about how our behavior changes, and we contrast past behavior with present behavior, it gives the impression that we ourselves are changing our own behavior. All our brains have been “wired” in certain ways, which we had no influence over, so fundamentally the way in which our brains are wired was out of our hands; on that note, can we “reasonably” say that we have even partial control over our own actions and thoughts?

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@existential potential,

Behavior can be controlled through teaching; religion is a very good example of that whether for good or bad.

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@firefly,

Instinctive reactions: a babies or toddlers reactions their experiences; a baby will instinctively dislike the pain it feels by someone hitting him/her. Such an experience can have a massive influence throughout their lives. The idea of fight or flight, fighting or “flying” will be instinctive reactions to things we encounter.

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@existential potential,

If we couldn't control our behavior we would not be able to live in groups--we would have no civilized culture.

Childrearing and parenting is the process by which we teach children to control their behaviors/impulses/drives, and teach which behaviors are acceptable and unacceptable. The human species has an incredibly long period of socialization for it's young. A lot of learning goes on during that period of time. Most of us wind up socialized and in control of our basic instincts.

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@firefly,

But not always, because we can see what happens when a child grows up in a bad neighborhood where gangs dominate. Good parenting doesn't always equal good behavior controlled by "basic instincts."

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@existential potential,

The desire to avoid pain is instinctive--pain is aversive. The things we learn to avoid, however, are the results of our experience and not due to instinct.

The child dislikes the pain of being spanked (instinctive). He learns not to do the things that lead to a spanking--or he learns not to get caught. (learned response/experience)

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@firefly,

existential potential wrote:

Our interpretations of experiences determine how we think, which, in turn determines how we behave; our interpretations are determined by early instinctive reactions to experiences, which then have a major influence on all subsequent thought, and therefore behaviour.

To retort to the first reply by “Shapeless”, it is not experience itself which determines anything, rather it is our interpretative and fundamentally our instinctive reactions to experience which determine our thought and therefore behaviour.

I just did not convey “experience” in the right manner.

OK - I'm confused <that doesn't take much these days> and is no slight on your thinking ep..

influence on all subsequent thought, and therefore behaviour.

as you change and grow thru life, your thought processess based on different experiences change, your behaviour changes. Therefore not all subsequent thought and behaviour is determined by early instinctive reactions.

What am I missing here? <answers on a postcard> Am I just being "thoughtless" here.... I don't get it!

firefly wrote:

All of this may go on in our brains so quickly we may, or may not, be aware of making the choice, but we are making it none-the-less. A mother who runs into a burning building to save her child knows she might die in doing so, but her own welfare is less important to her than her motivation to save her child--she has made a very rapid choice about what she wants to do, but she has made a choice.

yep Firefly, of course you are right there - that does make sense - I understand that from what you have written. How does the brain work so fast....? how can you have a whole lifetime of thoughts in a nano second?......oh no no no... they were rhetorical questions!

Childrearing and parenting... I believe... even when both are neurotypical is the most difficult and most rewarding “behaviour”...<----- can't think of the right word to use (job seems inappropriate, experience, maybe) when one is dealing with someone who is not neurotypical " the mix, at best, can be “soul destroying” emotionally.... that is where existpoten, who I think believes in “detachment” may have a point " though me personally, would never be able to “detatch” from emotions, I have to try and find a way to deal with the emotions " or else I believe, I lose “me”

Then...there's the mindset of love = (heart + mind) = (often irrational - should know better + does it anyway) = (heart > mind) = whole lot of passion fruit and coconuts!!!! Shocked

I'll stop thinking for a bit a? Wink

ci " yep, yep..
Nick " I have much to learn about this, which I am about just commencing... this interests me greatly.

<reading along>

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@firefly,

Firefly wrote:
"If we couldn't control our behavior we would not be able to live in groups--we would have no civilized culture."

Have you ever heard of the concept of "memes"; memes are ideas or behaviors which pass from person to person, through learning or imitation. people may inherit certain memes without being aware of that they have. they are contagious, and spread through a culture or peoples like a virus would. we do not have to actually "control" our behavior, we have simply to all unconsciously inherit a certain meme, such as behaving in a friendly manner towards one another, believing this to be the "Right" thing. all it takes is a single agent to interpret an experience in a certain way, recall it to the group, maybe Exaggerate it, or simply tell it how he "experienced" it, and then this idea will spread and "take over" the minds of others.

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@existential potential,

ep, So true; that's the reason different cultures have different values.

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@cicerone imposter,

cicerone imposter, you are confusing values with behavioral control.

An adolescent may have the ability to control aggressive impulses, but placed in a gang situation, he may choose not to control them if the gang values aggressiveness. This doesn't mean the adolescent can't control aggression, he's choosing not to because of the situation he's in. If the gang situation rewards aggressiveness, and he wants to be accepted by the gang, he will act more aggressively. This is learned behavior. It is choice.

If an adolescent didn't have basic control over aggressive behaviors, he'd punch and destroy anyone and anything that got in the way of his satisfying his basic drives and desires. We lock up people that act like that and place them in institutions. They cannot function adequately in a civilized society, they are too disruptive to others.

When I was an adolescent, it was considered important for females to remain virgins until marriage--so a great many females did just that. Now, cultural values have changed, and many more females are sexually active before marriage. The basic sex drives/instincts of females have not changed, but the sexual behaviors are less controlled now because people are making different choices based on shifts in societal values.

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@firefly,

firefly wrote:

The desire to avoid pain is instinctive--pain is aversive. The things we learn to avoid, however, are the results of our experience and not due to instinct.

The child dislikes the pain of being spanked (instinctive). He learns not to do the things that lead to a spanking--or he learns not to get caught. (learned response/experience)

oh noooo... I'm supposed to only be reading along now... am I diverting here...

say... a child is sexually abused.... from a very young age.... the child does not know it is wrong, but as the child grows older and learns from others, adults, peers, what is acceptable or not acceptable.... (right/wrong)...just how horribly wrong it is... but then...in many cases I believe, the child has been damaged enough in their mind to then continue the abuse, or go into prostitution...etc... where does the instinctive learning come into this - the learned response/experience?

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@firefly,

firefly wrote:

If an adolescent didn't have basic control over aggressive behaviors, he'd punch and destroy anyone and anything that got in the way of his satisfying his basic drives and desires. We lock up people that act like that and place them in institutions. They cannot function adequately in a civilized society, they are too disruptive to others.

yep, even with mental health disorders.

he'd also self harm to such an extent and have suicidal tendancies, if that's what you call them, therefore, his mind is not able to take control of his life. Or rather it could, meaning death. His choices. Or are they?

Being placed in institution for these bahaviours, in my opinion, could be worse than death.

(K - zipping it for a while...got a plum in my mouth)

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@Izzie,

Sexual abuse , particularly of a very young child, can arrouse all sorts of physiological and emotional responses which are beyond the cognitive and physical capacity of the child to organize and process. This over stimulation can then cause this child to sexually abuse other children, drift into promiscuity in adolescence, and eventually become an adult child abuser. These behaviors may be maladaptive, but they are learned in response to a situation (the initial sexual abuse) in which the child was not capable of making an adaptive reaction.

We really are going all over the place with this. I think we're now into kiwi's and komquats. Laughing

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@existential potential,

Quote:

Our interpretations of experiences determine how we think, which, in turn determines how we behave; our interpretations are determined by early instinctive reactions to experiences, which then have a major influence on all subsequent thought, and therefore behaviour.

To retort to the first reply by “Shapeless”, it is not experience itself which determines anything, rather it is our interpretative and fundamentally our instinctive reactions to experience which determine our thought and therefore behaviour.

Again, I would argue that your model too breezily conflates correlation and causation. The "major influence" of instincts in your first paragraph becomes a (or the) "fundamental" determinant of behavior in the second one. This is why your model has not yet explained the many examples others have brought up where people quite consciously defy their instincts.

I don't think the "meme" theory helps the argument out of its reductiveness, either; all it does is turn the whole thing into a tautology by trying to turn learning into an exclusively unconscious process, since unconsciousness is central to the argument. Sometimes learning is unconscious, certainly, but sometimes it isn't. As you put it,

existential potential wrote:

we do not have to actually "control" our behavior, we have simply to all unconsciously inherit a certain meme, such as behaving in a friendly manner towards one another, believing this to be the "Right" thing.

You're right, we don't have to be conscious of our behavioral changes... but that's not to say we can't. If you've spent time in a foreign country, I'm sure you've had the experience of noticing the little tics and mannerisms that people do differently and choosing whether or not you should do as they do. Sometimes you don't even have to notice it for yourself. When I travel abroad, I always read travel guides and speak to others who have spent time in that country, and I am told directly about certain cultural mannerisms that I can choose to heed or ignore. In either case, those behavioral decisions are made in a completely conscious, active process. I don't see how instinct can be called a "fundamental" determinant in that process. Instinct is involved, undoubtedly, but the process cannot be reduced to instinct alone.

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@firefly,

firefly wrote:

Quote:

We really are going all over the place with this. I think we're now into kiwi's and komquats.Laughing

Yup.

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@Shapeless,

your right Shapeless, instinct cannot be the root source of action. we can as intelligent beings "override" our instincts as it were by thinking and reasoning. however, I question the freedom of our own thought; the title of this discussion "Our minds control us...", "control" us inasmuch as we do not seem to "choose" to think when we want, rather thoughts just appear when "they" want. I do not think we have "free will" in the common sense, sense, and I do not believe that we have "free thought" either. however, there was thing one thing someone said, and it was about how some people appear to be "more free" than others; people who follow the lives of celebrities for example, and wear what they wear and do what they do, seem to be determined by what a particular person does. on the other hand, people who question things all the time, and take things into account, and think "for themselves", are semingly more free in that respect; they are more independent than the celebrity worshipping dolt, in body and mind.

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@existential potential,

In some respects, that is true: I'm an atheist in a family of christians. I feel "free" from the dogmas of religion.

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@existential potential,

Quote:

I question the freedom of our own thought; the title of this discussion "Our minds control us...", "control" us inasmuch as we do not seem to "choose" to think when we want, rather thoughts just appear when "they" want.

I can see what you're saying and in a general sense I agree. My hangup is that it's a little strange for me to think of "me," the choosing agent, as something distinct from my thoughts; I'm not exactly sure what the difference is between thinking a thought and having a thought "appear." But that takes us into the terrain of consciousness and identity... and I'm happy to leave that particular can of worms to Fresco's more able hands. Very Happy

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Our minds control us...

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