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Oldest Reference to Jesus - "Found"

 
 
Reply Fri 3 Oct, 2008 01:09 pm
Earliest reference describes Christ as 'magician'
Bowl dated between late 2nd century B.C. and the early 1st century A.D.

Christoph Gerigk / Franck Goddio/ Hilti Foundation
A bowl, dating to between the late 2nd century B.C. and the early 1st century A.D., is engraved with what may be the world's first known reference to Christ. The engraving reads, "DIA CHRSTOU O GOISTAIS," which has been interpreted to mean either, "by Christ the magician" or, "the magician by Christ."


Wed., Oct. 1, 2008
A team of scientists led by renowned French marine archaeologist Franck Goddio recently announced that they have found a bowl, dating to between the late 2nd century B.C. and the early 1st century A.D., that is engraved with what they believe could be the world's first known reference to Christ.

If the word "Christ" refers to the Biblical Jesus Christ, as is speculated, then the discovery may provide evidence that Christianity and paganism at times intertwined in the ancient world.

The full engraving on the bowl reads, "DIA CHRSTOU O GOISTAIS," which has been interpreted by the excavation team to mean either, "by Christ the magician" or, "the magician by Christ."

"It could very well be a reference to Jesus Christ, in that he was once the primary exponent of white magic," Goddio, co-founder of the Oxford Center of Maritime Archaeology, said.

He and his colleagues found the object during an excavation of the underwater ruins of Alexandria's ancient great harbor. The Egyptian site also includes the now submerged island of Antirhodos, where Cleopatra's palace may have been located.

Both Goddio and Egyptologist David Fabre, a member of the European Institute of Submarine Archaeology, think a "magus" could have practiced fortune telling rituals using the bowl. The Book of Matthew refers to "wisemen," or Magi, believed to have been prevalent in the ancient world.

According to Fabre, the bowl is also very similar to one depicted in two early Egyptian earthenware statuettes that are thought to show a soothsaying ritual.

"It has been known in Mesopotamia probably since the 3rd millennium B.C.," Fabre said. "The soothsayer interprets the forms taken by the oil poured into a cup of water in an interpretation guided by manuals."

He added that the individual, or "medium," then goes into a hallucinatory trance when studying the oil in the cup.

"They therefore see the divinities, or supernatural beings appear that they call to answer their questions with regard to the future," he said.

The magus might then have used the engraving on the bowl to legitimize his supernatural powers by invoking the name of Christ, the scientists theorize.

Goddio said, "It is very probable that in Alexandria they were aware of the existence of Jesus" and of his associated legendary miracles, such as transforming water into wine, multiplying loaves of bread, conducting miraculous health cures, and the story of the resurrection itself.

While not discounting the Jesus Christ interpretation, other researchers have offered different possible interpretations for the engraving, which was made on the thin-walled ceramic bowl after it was fired, since slip was removed during the process.

Bert Smith, a professor of classical archaeology and art at Oxford University, suggests the engraving might be a dedication, or present, made by a certain "Chrestos" belonging to a possible religious association called Ogoistais.

Klaus Hallof, director of the Institute of Greek inscriptions at the Berlin-Brandenburg Academy, added that if Smith's interpretation proves valid, the word "Ogoistais" could then be connected to known religious groups that worshipped early Greek and Egyptian gods and goddesses, such as Hermes, Athena and Isis.

Hallof additionally pointed out that historians working at around, or just after, the time of the bowl, such as Strabon and Pausanias, refer to the god "Osogo" or "Ogoa," so a variation of this might be what's on the bowl. It is even possible that the bowl refers to both Jesus Christ and Osogo.

Fabre concluded, "It should be remembered that in Alexandria, paganism, Judaism and Christianity never evolved in isolation. All of these forms of religion (evolved) magical practices that seduced both the humble members of the population and the most well-off classes."

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Type: Discussion • Score: 2 • Views: 2,475 • Replies: 12
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edgarblythe
 
  2  
Reply Fri 3 Oct, 2008 01:13 pm
@edgarblythe,
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26972493/?GT1=43001
Forgot to link it.
Diane
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Oct, 2008 04:52 pm
@edgarblythe,
Interesting, Edgar. Wouldn't it be astounding to actually find something definitive from that period?
farmerman
 
  2  
Reply Fri 3 Oct, 2008 04:58 pm
@edgarblythe,
It was a bowl used for holding Razum Crispus, a cereal food that was made by toasting rice until it popped and formed a crunchy snack. The three wise men, three person in one God, and the three bakers of Raza Crispii, coincidence? I think not.
0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Oct, 2008 04:58 pm
@Diane,
Since I have always denied his existence, it would be interesting indeed.
Reyn
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Oct, 2008 07:47 pm
@edgarblythe,
edgarblythe wrote:
A bowl, dating to between the late 2nd century B.C. and the early 1st century A.D., is engraved with what may be the world's first known reference to Christ.

Here is a picture of that bowl:

http://i.pbase.com/g6/39/176239/3/75567664.DJrM6P3s.jpg

The engraving is on the back side.




global disclaimer
0 Replies
 
Merry Andrew
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Oct, 2008 09:37 pm
@edgarblythe,
What in the name of sanity makes these folks think that the quite common Greek name Chrstou (there are variant spellings) refers to Jesus of Nazareth? The coincidence in dating? By itself that means nothing. The person we refer to as 'Jesus' was not known by the cognomen 'Christ' during his own lifetime. That is a later addition by his disciples. It just means 'the annointed one.' Sheesh.
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Oct, 2008 09:54 pm
@edgarblythe,
edgarblythe wrote:

Since I have always denied his existence, it would be interesting indeed.
Shocked I knew you denied God's existence... but I didn't know anybody denied Christ's existence.
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Oct, 2008 10:09 pm
@OCCOM BILL,
There are a few of us.
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Oct, 2008 04:24 am
@edgarblythe,
In my half vast collection of memorabilia, I have a copy of Jesis' High school yearbook. The boy wore a mullet. Kinda had a Joe Dirt look goin .
0 Replies
 
Merry Andrew
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Oct, 2008 06:54 am
@edgarblythe,
Yeah, I know. Some of my best friends...etc. etc. And that makes absolutely no sense to me.
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Oct, 2008 11:36 am
@Merry Andrew,
The investigators are using "what may" and "could be" language. They're not exactly being definitive about it.

It's an interesting find, with or without the connection to the person Christians are most interested in. Who knows what else will be found over the next few years.
0 Replies
 
Merry Andrew
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Oct, 2008 11:44 am
I remember when they found some pieces of wood near the top of Mount Ararat in Turkey and claimed it was the remains of Noah's ark. That was thigh-slapper, that one.
0 Replies
 
 

 
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