Reply Fri 15 Aug, 2008 12:26 pm
When King David and others of the old testament including the prophets, spoke of a redeemer and a saviour, what exactly were they asking to be saved from ?
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devriesj
 
  2  
Reply Fri 15 Aug, 2008 06:44 pm
@lbrock20,
Their own sins.
mismi
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Aug, 2008 12:35 pm
@devriesj,
yep.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  2  
Reply Sat 16 Aug, 2008 01:05 pm
I disagree. In Moses era, the redeemer was expected to be the one to release the "children of Israel' from bondage in Egypt. In the post Exodus, pre-Christian era, the 'redeemer' or 'messiah' was expected to a charismatic, powerful, great, and effective military leader that would defeat their enemies and restore Israel to the glory promised in YHWH's covenants first with Abraham and then with David.

That is why Jesus, as Messiah, was not really understood by the prophets--they got the details right but mostly misinterpreted them--and why His role as Messiah was missed by most of the Jews. They were expecting nothing at all like Him. He himself explained that he would save them not from their enemies but from bondage to consequences of the Law which He replaced with new understandings of eternal life.
mismi
 
  2  
Reply Sat 16 Aug, 2008 03:03 pm
@Foxfyre,
mmmmmm - maybe...but it was the job of several of the prophets (if not all) to proclaim the Messiah, the coming of Jesus. Jesus came, not to set up an earthly kingdom and not to save them from physical bondage but from their spiritual bondage - or sin. Now the people, not being "heavenly" minded, generally tended to think of being brought out of whatever captivity they found themselves in at the time. So I guess it depends on who you asked at the time.
mismi
 
  2  
Reply Sat 16 Aug, 2008 03:05 pm
@mismi,
And.... David was definitely after salvation from his own sin. He was very aware of his relationship with God and consistently confessed his sin.
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Foxfyre
 
  2  
Reply Sat 16 Aug, 2008 03:12 pm
@mismi,
Yes, but look at the question that opened the thread:
Quote:
When King David and others of the old testament including the prophets, spoke of a redeemer and a saviour, what exactly were they asking to be saved from ?


Most Christians and Orthodox Jews believe that the scriptural prophecies are the Word of God spoken through the prophets. We cannot assume, however, that the prophets fully understood their own prophecies.

For instance from Isaiah 9:
Quote:
1 Nevertheless, that time of darkness and despair will not go on forever. The land of Zebulun and Naphtali will soon be humbled, but there will be a time in the future when Galilee of the Gentiles, which lies along the road that runs between the Jordan and the sea, will be filled with glory.

2 The people who walk in darkness will see a great light--a light that will shine on all who live in the land where death casts its shadow.

3 Israel will again be great, and its people will rejoice as people rejoice at harvesttime. They will shout with joy like warriors dividing the plunder.


Do you think Isaiah had Jesus of Nazareth (Galilee) in mind when he gave this prophecy? Do you think it was a vision of the gentle and philosophical Jesus that the people envisioned when they heard it? Later Isaiah's 'suffering servant' narratives would provide a completely different image if those in fact were identified as Messianic prophecies at the time, but it is obvious (to me anyway) why so few recognized Jesus as the Messiah when he was finally living and ministering and teaching among them. And so few understood that it was a different kind of salvation at stake than one that simply defeated their enemies.

And David was not looking for redemption from a Messiah. He was looking for redemption from YHWH Himself.

mismi
 
  2  
Reply Sat 16 Aug, 2008 03:36 pm
@Foxfyre,
Quote:
Do you think Isaiah had Jesus of Nazareth (Galilee) in mind when he gave this prophecy?


I do... Chapter 9 vs 6,7,8
Quote:
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

7Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

8The Lord sent a word into Jacob, and it hath lighted upon Israel.


And I said David was seeking Salvation from his sin. His salvation came from the Lord God, as you said. He died before the coming of the Messiah.

But - I am no scholar. It is my simple opinion from my own reading.

0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  2  
Reply Sat 16 Aug, 2008 03:59 pm
Well I don't pretend to have any ability to read Isaiah's mind either of course and I don't question what the Lord puts on somebody's heart for contemplation. But for me I just don't see a Jesus of Nazareth in the prophecies and I don't think Isaiah saw Jesus either mostly because of the tremendous regard in which he was held well into the First Century. I am relatively certain that a Prince of Peace was the great leader who would restore Judah to glory through defeat of their enemies and I don't think he had any concept of a Messiah God in the sense that Jesus was.

The reason is that the Pharisees were the conservative fundamentalists of First Century Judaism and they knew their scriptures frontwards, backwards, and sideways and could probably recite Isaiah from memory. And yet they were unable to recognize Jesus and they crucified him for claiming to be God, something that was blasphemous for ANY man to say no matter who he was.

I am not at all questioning the prophecies themselves. I am only questioning the understanding of what they meant prior to the actual events unfolding. After the events unfolded, it would be much easier to again read the text and say "aha! Yes!"

Do I have it all figured out? I have no way of knowing until I can meet Isaiah face to face and ask him myself. Smile
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  2  
Reply Wed 20 Aug, 2008 08:57 am
@lbrock20,
lbrock20 wrote:
When King David and others of the old testament including the prophets, spoke of a redeemer and a saviour, what exactly were they asking to be saved from ?
When Adam and Eve sinned, they lost their perfection and could pass on only sin and death to their offspring. "That is why, just as through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men because they had all sinned." (Romans 5:12)

God promised a redemption from this consequence in the third chapter of Genesis, when he said to the serpent "And I shall put enmity between you and the woman and between your seed and her seed. He will bruise you in the head and you will bruise him in the heel." (Genesis 3:15)

The seed of the woman was the savior of whom the prophets spoke.
mismi
 
  2  
Reply Wed 20 Aug, 2008 03:22 pm
@neologist,
So Neologist - are you talking about the seed of Eve - specifically or as in lineage? Or was it just all women's seed? And how can the seed save? Just curious.
neologist
 
  2  
Reply Thu 21 Aug, 2008 08:40 am
@mismi,
There is some yet to be explained metaphor here. But seed = descendant(s). In this case a specific 'he'.
mismi
 
  2  
Reply Thu 21 Aug, 2008 08:42 am
@neologist,
Got it...that's what I thought Very Happy just like it spelled out. Wink
0 Replies
 
 

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